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Author Topic: The D.I.E.G.O. System  (Read 601 times)

ChillinDylan Godsend

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2018, 08:37:00 pm »
I think i speak for everyone when I say that Diego looked so stupid on that Nas thread.

I'm guessing Diego would disagree.

I didn't do much there other than state fact and personal opinion.

So are you saying that it's an "objective truth to you"?  LOL

That "Illmatic" is less famous than the most famous album of all time? Yeah.

Here:  http://trollfightersoasis.createaforum.com/best-movies-by-year/nominees-1994-best-films/msg46311/#msg46311

Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2018, 08:39:00 pm »
I think i speak for everyone when I say that Diego looked so stupid on that Nas thread.

I'm guessing Diego would disagree.

I didn't do much there other than state fact and personal opinion.

So are you saying that it's an "objective truth to you"?  LOL

That "Illmatic" is less famous than the most famous album of all time? Yeah.

Here:  http://trollfightersoasis.createaforum.com/best-movies-by-year/nominees-1994-best-films/msg46311/#msg46311

I wonder if Paasche also "objectively" believes that rap is better than classic rock...

ChillinDylan Godsend

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2018, 08:48:11 pm »
I think i speak for everyone when I say that Diego looked so stupid on that Nas thread.

I'm guessing Diego would disagree.

I didn't do much there other than state fact and personal opinion.

So are you saying that it's an "objective truth to you"?  LOL

That "Illmatic" is less famous than the most famous album of all time? Yeah.

Here:  http://trollfightersoasis.createaforum.com/best-movies-by-year/nominees-1994-best-films/msg46311/#msg46311

I wonder if Paasche also "objectively" believes that rap is better than classic rock...

Classic rock being better than rap is        an objective truth         to me         though others may disagree        and they may be correct.

Kale Pasta

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2018, 11:45:05 am »
I think i speak for everyone when I say that Diego looked so stupid on that Nas thread.
Everyone but Diego seemed to think that, yes. For the record, Diego, Danny's right in that this argument really did come down to you not being able to see this from someone else's perspective (manifested further once you started getting into how rock takes more skill to play than other genres). There's a reason for the mayo and vanilla cake pics on that thread, and it wasn't an unreasonable one. Rap is the most popular and, culturally speaking, most important genre of music today and Illmatic is probably rap's most highly regarded and influential album.

All that being said, my objectivity argument is shockingly poorly articulated and generally bad looking back on it :p.

Robert Neville

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2018, 02:02:00 pm »
I feel like this has been used on me more than once...

This thread was prime. You got D.I.E.G.O.'d hard, son.
I'd argue you succeeded only in making yourself look like a fool in that thread but to each their own.

I got you to say that some rap album was just as famous as Sgt. Pepper's. That's a win in any book.
Illmatic is “some rap album”.

Hahahahaha, god you’re so ignorant.

Again, it doesn't matter what specific album it is. No album is as famous as Sgt. Pepper's.

God, step one is so easy with you.
Diego, I genuinely hope one day you are forced to consider other people’s perspectives.

I tried seeing what Quora has to say about it (anonymously, since obviously I don't want that question stuck to my profile forever): https://www.quora.com/Is-Nas-Illmatic-album-comparable-in-its-influence-to-The-Beatles-Sgt-Peppers-Lonely-Hearts-Club-Band

It didn't receive much of a response, but the people who did reply predictably sided with Diego. I suppose Caleb now has his big chance to prove them wrong and write a long, controversial "top answer" to the question.
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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2018, 02:36:50 pm »
I think i speak for everyone when I say that Diego looked so stupid on that Nas thread.
Everyone but Diego seemed to think that, yes. For the record, Diego, Danny's right in that this argument really did come down to you not being able to see this from someone else's perspective (manifested further once you started getting into how rock takes more skill to play than other genres). There's a reason for the mayo and vanilla cake pics on that thread, and it wasn't an unreasonable one. Rap is the most popular and, culturally speaking, most important genre of music today and Illmatic is probably rap's most highly regarded and influential album.

All that being said, my objectivity argument is shockingly poorly articulated and generally bad looking back on it :p.

If your argument ever starts with "Danny's right," you need to take a breath and think twice. Firstly, there is no perspective from which "Nas" (who I literally have never heard of outside of this discussion) is more famous than The Beatles. I don't care who you are or where you come from-- that's an objectively incorrect, stupid statement. Secondly, the entire thrust of your argument is predicated on the fact that I said I don't care about other people's opinions or perspectives (at least when it comes to music). I fail to see the issue here. No amount of cultural influence or popularity will make me like an artist or a song. Perhaps this has caused me to become ignorant in the field of rap, but because it's not a subject I care to know anything about, it's really a non-issue. Your comment is just one long appeal to the authority of the masses, as if popular opinion should have a say in dictating my taste. It shouldn't and it doesn't.

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2018, 02:52:22 pm »
I think i speak for everyone when I say that Diego looked so stupid on that Nas thread.
Everyone but Diego seemed to think that, yes. For the record, Diego, Danny's right in that this argument really did come down to you not being able to see this from someone else's perspective (manifested further once you started getting into how rock takes more skill to play than other genres). There's a reason for the mayo and vanilla cake pics on that thread, and it wasn't an unreasonable one. Rap is the most popular and, culturally speaking, most important genre of music today and Illmatic is probably rap's most highly regarded and influential album.

All that being said, my objectivity argument is shockingly poorly articulated and generally bad looking back on it :p.

"Superhero movie is the most popular and, culturally speaking, most important genre of film today and The Avengers is probably the most highly regarded and influential superhero film."

Honestly, I am somewhat sympathetic to your side in this argument (since, like Braden, I find a lot of rock music overrated, and secretly wince every time I witness Kashmir's Led Zeppelin worship.) Still, how is this statement any different? Why can't you argue your position from the merits you see in the album/each track, the way we do with film, as opposed to deploying outside validation?

Also, I'll say that I also have not heard of Nas till that thread. Whenever I heard people discuss rap, whether in Russia or Australia, 2Pac was the one considered the most influential by far.

Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2018, 03:00:04 pm »
I think i speak for everyone when I say that Diego looked so stupid on that Nas thread.
Everyone but Diego seemed to think that, yes. For the record, Diego, Danny's right in that this argument really did come down to you not being able to see this from someone else's perspective (manifested further once you started getting into how rock takes more skill to play than other genres). There's a reason for the mayo and vanilla cake pics on that thread, and it wasn't an unreasonable one. Rap is the most popular and, culturally speaking, most important genre of music today and Illmatic is probably rap's most highly regarded and influential album.

All that being said, my objectivity argument is shockingly poorly articulated and generally bad looking back on it :p.

"Superhero movie is the most popular and, culturally speaking, most important genre of film today and The Avengers is probably the most highly regarded and influential superhero film."

Honestly, I am somewhat sympathetic to your side in this argument (since, like Braden, I find a lot of rock music overrated, and secretly wince every time I witness Kashmir's Led Zeppelin worship.) Still, how is this statement any different? Why can't you argue your position from the merits you see in the album/each track, the way we do with film, as opposed to deploying outside validation?

Also, I'll say that I also have not heard of Nas till that thread. Whenever I heard people discuss rap, whether in Russia or Australia, 2Pac was the one considered the most influential by far.

Well, we've already established that Kale and I look for fundamentally different things in music-- I like soothing acoustic guitars, melodies, memorable lyrics, and harmonies, while he likes... uh... something about rap, I guess. Btw, there was a time when I too disliked Led Zeppelin, mainly because I had only heard their loudest and most critically acclaimed songs. Their acoustic stuff, especially on the second and third albums, is in my opinion their best work.

cupcake

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2018, 03:03:10 pm »
IDK why Kale would use Illmatic as the most influential album of modern times when it isn't even the most influential rap album.  Rappers like NWA, Eminem, Rakim, Tupac, and Biggie all have a much stronger and known influence in rap.  Eminem would arguably be the most influential rapper as he's broken countless musical records and introduced middle class America to rap.

Robert, the answers you received are filled with personal bias as well.  Objectively, Sgt. Pepper's has sold more copies than Illmatic, but Sgt. Pepper's is also a much older album in a much more universally accepted genre of music, which is shifting now.  Kale jumped the ship by comparing a relatively young album to albums with a much larger historical presence.  Give it 30 more years and then we can discuss this more appropriately.

Also, Diego seems to focus in on one part of his argument and not the parts where he made ludicrous statements, such as saying that rap isn't composed of "real" instruments.

My personal take is that rap > rock.
goodbye!
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Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2018, 03:13:34 pm »
IDK why Kale would use Illmatic as the most influential album of modern times when it isn't even the most influential rap album.  Rappers like NWA, Eminem, Rakim, Tupac, and Biggie all have a much stronger and known influence in rap.  Eminem would arguably be the most influential rapper as he's broken countless musical records and introduced middle class America to rap.

Robert, the answers you received are filled with personal bias as well.  Objectively, Sgt. Pepper's has sold more copies than Illmatic, but Sgt. Pepper's is also a much older album in a much more universally accepted genre of music, which is shifting now.  Kale jumped the ship by comparing a relatively young album to albums with a much larger historical presence.  Give it 30 more years and then we can discuss this more appropriately.

Also, Diego seems to focus in on one part of his argument and not the parts where he made ludicrous statements, such as saying that rap isn't composed of "real" instruments.

My personal take is that rap > rock.

I hate to cling to that Sgt. Pepper's statement, but the fact that Kale hasn't even attempted to walk it back yet forces me to bring it up again and again. Although even if we wait 30 years, I have a difficult time believing that much of the music from the past two decades will still be held in high regard, especially in comparison to the golden age of classic rock. The fact that so many people nowadays prefer to listen to music from before 1990 is evidence that whatever is currently popular with Kale's crowd doesn't cut it for a lot of listeners.

"Real" instruments means piano, guitar, bass, drums, strings, etc. Not once have I heard these in rap outside of B.o.B, who I will say is the one rapper whose music I've actually enjoyed in the past. Of course, he also happens to believe the Earth is flat. Now, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with some other exceptions, and that's good for you, but the fact is that this genre of music rarely uses instruments in the traditional sense, and that happens to be something I care about when I choose what I listen to. And don't bring up beatboxing or turntables. That's like saying


ChillinDylan Godsend

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2018, 04:54:25 pm »

$+/\|_ˇ|\|

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2018, 06:19:26 pm »
IDK why Kale would use Illmatic as the most influential album of modern times when it isn't even the most influential rap album.  Rappers like NWA, Eminem, Rakim, Tupac, and Biggie all have a much stronger and known influence in rap.  Eminem would arguably be the most influential rapper as he's broken countless musical records and introduced middle class America to rap.

Robert, the answers you received are filled with personal bias as well.  Objectively, Sgt. Pepper's has sold more copies than Illmatic, but Sgt. Pepper's is also a much older album in a much more universally accepted genre of music, which is shifting now.  Kale jumped the ship by comparing a relatively young album to albums with a much larger historical presence.  Give it 30 more years and then we can discuss this more appropriately.

Also, Diego seems to focus in on one part of his argument and not the parts where he made ludicrous statements, such as saying that rap isn't composed of "real" instruments.

My personal take is that rap > rock.

I hate to cling to that Sgt. Pepper's statement, but the fact that Kale hasn't even attempted to walk it back yet forces me to bring it up again and again. Although even if we wait 30 years, I have a difficult time believing that much of the music from the past two decades will still be held in high regard, especially in comparison to the golden age of classic rock. The fact that so many people nowadays prefer to listen to music from before 1990 is evidence that whatever is currently popular with Kale's crowd doesn't cut it for a lot of listeners.

"Real" instruments means piano, guitar, bass, drums, strings, etc. Not once have I heard these in rap outside of B.o.B, who I will say is the one rapper whose music I've actually enjoyed in the past. Of course, he also happens to believe the Earth is flat. Now, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with some other exceptions, and that's good for you, but the fact is that this genre of music rarely uses instruments in the traditional sense, and that happens to be something I care about when I choose what I listen to. And don't bring up beatboxing or turntables. That's like saying


To Pimp a Butterfly heavily utilized jazz instruments and had jazz artists perform wth intricate compositions.

Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2018, 07:09:40 pm »
I hate to cling to that Sgt. Pepper's statement, but the fact that Kale hasn't even attempted to walk it back yet forces me to bring it up again and again. Although even if we wait 30 years, I have a difficult time believing that much of the music from the past two decades will still be held in high regard, especially in comparison to the golden age of classic rock. The fact that so many people nowadays prefer to listen to music from before 1990 is evidence that whatever is currently popular with Kale's crowd doesn't cut it for a lot of listeners.

"Real" instruments means piano, guitar, bass, drums, strings, etc. Not once have I heard these in rap outside of B.o.B, who I will say is the one rapper whose music I've actually enjoyed in the past. Of course, he also happens to believe the Earth is flat. Now, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with some other exceptions, and that's good for you, but the fact is that this genre of music rarely uses instruments in the traditional sense, and that happens to be something I care about when I choose what I listen to. And don't bring up beatboxing or turntables. That's like saying
To Pimp a Butterfly heavily utilized jazz instruments and had jazz artists perform wth intricate compositions.

Gee, maybe you missed that. Let me help you out there.

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2018, 07:23:48 pm »
IDK why Kale would use Illmatic as the most influential album of modern times when it isn't even the most influential rap album.  Rappers like NWA, Eminem, Rakim, Tupac, and Biggie all have a much stronger and known influence in rap.  Eminem would arguably be the most influential rapper as he's broken countless musical records and introduced middle class America to rap.

Robert, the answers you received are filled with personal bias as well.  Objectively, Sgt. Pepper's has sold more copies than Illmatic, but Sgt. Pepper's is also a much older album in a much more universally accepted genre of music, which is shifting now.  Kale jumped the ship by comparing a relatively young album to albums with a much larger historical presence.  Give it 30 more years and then we can discuss this more appropriately.

Also, Diego seems to focus in on one part of his argument and not the parts where he made ludicrous statements, such as saying that rap isn't composed of "real" instruments.

My personal take is that rap > rock.

I hate to cling to that Sgt. Pepper's statement, but the fact that Kale hasn't even attempted to walk it back yet forces me to bring it up again and again. Although even if we wait 30 years, I have a difficult time believing that much of the music from the past two decades will still be held in high regard, especially in comparison to the golden age of classic rock. The fact that so many people nowadays prefer to listen to music from before 1990 is evidence that whatever is currently popular with Kale's crowd doesn't cut it for a lot of listeners.

"Real" instruments means piano, guitar, bass, drums, strings, etc. Not once have I heard these in rap outside of B.o.B, who I will say is the one rapper whose music I've actually enjoyed in the past. Of course, he also happens to believe the Earth is flat. Now, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with some other exceptions, and that's good for you, but the fact is that this genre of music rarely uses instruments in the traditional sense, and that happens to be something I care about when I choose what I listen to. And don't bring up beatboxing or turntables. That's like saying



This line of thinking is the same thing people thought of Elvis and rock and roll when it first came about...  Talk about a lack of self awareness in basic music history.  Face the facts, rap has solidified itself as the largest and most profitable genre of music.  Rock has, more or less, died at this point.  I can't think of a current rock band that has successfully broken into the mainstream, besides Imagine Dragons and I wouldn't even really consider them rock anymore.  Rap has taken that place and no matter how much you protest, you cannot deny that the majority (yes, the majority) of today's youth absolutely loves rap.

And your 2nd paragraph is absolutely ridiculous.  Beastie Boys, Eminem, Kendrick Lamar, Madvillain, and multitudes of other rap artists have known to incorporate your "real" instruments in their beats. There are so many rap songs comprised of jazz, blues, and even rock instruments and sounds that it clearly shows your knowledge on this subject is painfully shallow and invalidates anything you have to say about how rap will be looked on in the future.  Of course, there are shit rap songs and there are a lot.  But your romanticism of rock ignores the large amount of garbage from that era.  Can you honestly tell me that Atlantis by Donovan is a good song? Dread it.  Run from it.  Destiny arrives. 

And btw, you're practically in bed with Bob Dylan, who definitely is one of the biggest contributors to the development of rap.
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Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2018, 09:48:03 pm »
This line of thinking is the same thing people thought of Elvis and rock and roll when it first came about...  Talk about a lack of self awareness in basic music history.  Face the facts, rap has solidified itself as the largest and most profitable genre of music.  Rock has, more or less, died at this point.  I can't think of a current rock band that has successfully broken into the mainstream, besides Imagine Dragons and I wouldn't even really consider them rock anymore.  Rap has taken that place and no matter how much you protest, you cannot deny that the majority (yes, the majority) of today's youth absolutely loves rap.

And your 2nd paragraph is absolutely ridiculous.  Beastie Boys, Eminem, Kendrick Lamar, Madvillain, and multitudes of other rap artists have known to incorporate your "real" instruments in their beats. There are so many rap songs comprised of jazz, blues, and even rock instruments and sounds that it clearly shows your knowledge on this subject is painfully shallow and invalidates anything you have to say about how rap will be looked on in the future.  Of course, there are shit rap songs and there are a lot.  But your romanticism of rock ignores the large amount of garbage from that era.  Can you honestly tell me that Atlantis by Donovan is a good song? Dread it.  Run from it.  Destiny arrives. 

And btw, you're practically in bed with Bob Dylan, who definitely is one of the biggest contributors to the development of rap.

Pure conjecture. The staying power of a genre cannot be proven by how popular it is in the moment. Every list of best-selling albums is absolutely dominated by music from between 1970 and 1990. Maybe Eminem cracks the list here and there, but it's not statistically significant. And don't tell me that it's because rap hasn't been big long enough, because Adele's 21 was released in 2011 and it's sold over 30 million copies. The remainder of your paragraph is just more appeals to mass taste like Kale was using. I don't care.

Show me a breakdown of rap songs by which ones use instruments and have melodies. I'd be astonished if it was a significant portion. I'll happily admit defeat if it's over 10% (even 5% sounds high to me). At that point, the question becomes "Why hasn't Diego heard these types of rap?" and it's still going to come down to the fact that I listen to songs for their melodies. Thus, rap as a genre has basically nothing to offer me.

Kale Pasta

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2018, 09:53:36 pm »
IDK why Kale would use Illmatic as the most influential album of modern times when it isn't even the most influential rap album.  Rappers like NWA, Eminem, Rakim, Tupac, and Biggie all have a much stronger and known influence in rap.  Eminem would arguably be the most influential rapper as he's broken countless musical records and introduced middle class America to rap.

Robert, the answers you received are filled with personal bias as well.  Objectively, Sgt. Pepper's has sold more copies than Illmatic, but Sgt. Pepper's is also a much older album in a much more universally accepted genre of music, which is shifting now.  Kale jumped the ship by comparing a relatively young album to albums with a much larger historical presence.  Give it 30 more years and then we can discuss this more appropriately.

Also, Diego seems to focus in on one part of his argument and not the parts where he made ludicrous statements, such as saying that rap isn't composed of "real" instruments.

My personal take is that rap > rock.
Oh, Nas isn't the most influential rapper when looking at a whole career by any means, but in terms of one specific album, I'd put Illmatic up against pretty much anything. It was huge in terms of making rap more introspective as well as utilizing the more complex rhyme schemes seen by greats who followed it like Jay-Z and Eminem. You can obviously make a great case for why Straight Outta Compton, The Chronic, The Marshall Mathers LP and others are more influential, but I'd put Illmatic right up there in terms of top influence for a single album.

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2018, 10:16:30 pm »
I think i speak for everyone when I say that Diego looked so stupid on that Nas thread.
Everyone but Diego seemed to think that, yes. For the record, Diego, Danny's right in that this argument really did come down to you not being able to see this from someone else's perspective (manifested further once you started getting into how rock takes more skill to play than other genres). There's a reason for the mayo and vanilla cake pics on that thread, and it wasn't an unreasonable one. Rap is the most popular and, culturally speaking, most important genre of music today and Illmatic is probably rap's most highly regarded and influential album.

All that being said, my objectivity argument is shockingly poorly articulated and generally bad looking back on it :p.

If your argument ever starts with "Danny's right," you need to take a breath and think twice. Firstly, there is no perspective from which "Nas" (who I literally have never heard of outside of this discussion) is more famous than The Beatles. I don't care who you are or where you come from-- that's an objectively incorrect, stupid statement. Secondly, the entire thrust of your argument is predicated on the fact that I said I don't care about other people's opinions or perspectives (at least when it comes to music). I fail to see the issue here. No amount of cultural influence or popularity will make me like an artist or a song. Perhaps this has caused me to become ignorant in the field of rap, but because it's not a subject I care to know anything about, it's really a non-issue. Your comment is just one long appeal to the authority of the masses, as if popular opinion should have a say in dictating my taste. It shouldn't and it doesn't.
Quickly wanted to say that of course Nas as an artist is not more famous than The Beatles (or more influential, for that matter). However, Nas had one album, Illmatic, that is one of the most highly regarded and influential rap albums of all time, the reasons for which I detailed in my reply to Cutler. Anyway, I'll say again that I don't care whether you listen to rap or not, but if you self-admittedly have no knowledge of the genre, it's foolish to try and comment on what is famous or influential within that genre. Furthermore, popularity today is, whether you like it or not, important in terms of cultural influence. The idea that rap isn't here to stay is, quite frankly, completely ridiculous. You can care or not care about other peoples' opinions and that's fine, but when it come to cultural influence, the opinions of broader society matter and there's simply no arguing otherwise.

Also, below I posted a screenshot of the top 20 songs of last week. Now, again, none of this means you have to like these songs or rap as a whole, but 12 of the top 20 (and 55 of the top 100) songs on the Billboard charts last week include rappers as either the lead artist or a feature. Clearly, rap has an incredibly prominent place in the current culture and I personally believe that Illmatic is one of the foundational albums in the history of rap. Finally, like so many people, you talk about how rap is transient, ruining music, etc. but the idea that it won't have staying power is ridiculous. Of course the shitty rappers will be forgotten (just as so many lesser rock bands from the 60s and 70s have been forgotten), but I guarantee that artists like 2Pac, Biggie, Eminem, Jay-Z, Kanye, Kendrick etc. will have their classics and be remembered 30 years in the future.

A reminder of what rules music taste today (asteriks indicate rappers, slashes indicate a rap feature):
Spoiler (hover to show)

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2018, 10:47:19 pm »
Quickly wanted to say that of course Nas as an artist is not more famous than The Beatles (or more influential, for that matter). However, Nas had one album, Illmatic, that is one of the most highly regarded and influential rap albums of all time, the reasons for which I detailed in my reply to Cutler. Anyway, I'll say again that I don't care whether you listen to rap or not, but if you self-admittedly have no knowledge of the genre, it's foolish to try and comment on what is famous or influential within that genre. Furthermore, popularity today is, whether you like it or not, important in terms of cultural influence. The idea that rap isn't here to stay is, quite frankly, completely ridiculous. You can care or not care about other peoples' opinions and that's fine, but when it come to cultural influence, the opinions of broader society matter and there's simply no arguing otherwise.

Also, below I posted a screenshot of the top 20 songs of last week. Now, again, none of this means you have to like these songs or rap as a whole, but 12 of the top 20 (and 55 of the top 100) songs on the Billboard charts last week include rappers as either the lead artist or a feature. Clearly, rap has an incredibly prominent place in the current culture and I personally believe that Illmatic is one of the foundational albums in the history of rap. Finally, like so many people, you talk about how rap is transient, ruining music, etc. but the idea that it won't have staying power is ridiculous. Of course the shitty rappers will be forgotten (just as so many lesser rock bands from the 60s and 70s have been forgotten), but I guarantee that artists like 2Pac, Biggie, Eminem, Jay-Z, Kanye, Kendrick etc. will have their classics and be remembered 30 years in the future.

A reminder of what rules music taste today (asteriks indicate rappers, slashes indicate a rap feature):
Spoiler (hover to show)

Caleb, you seriously need to practice your reading comprehension. Not once did I try to comment on what albums/artists are influential within the category of rap. Not once did I say that popularity wasn't important in terms of cultural influence. Not once did I state unequivocally that rap "isn't here to stay." Not once did I say that rap was "ruining music." You are arguing against statements I never made, and which quite frankly have no bearing on this discussion at all. Every claim I've made throughout this discussion can be summed up as follows:

- "Illmatic" is not as famous as Sgt. Pepper's.

- I like melodies and instruments in my music and therefore don't get anything out of rap. This is a matter of personal taste. Cutler is going to attempt to prove that melody is more common in rap than I think it is, which I'm sure is possible-- but a tall order to prove, especially given that Wikipedia's article on Rap says "Raps are sometimes delivered with melody," in other words stating that this is an exception to the rule.

- The cultural zeitgeist doesn't matter to me and I will not listen to a particular kind of music because other people like it. You appear to take exception to this stance, to the point that you're putting words in my mouth/posting all sorts of recent Billboard charts. You literally sound like a DC fanboy attempting to argue that box office numbers are an indicator of quality.

- I doubt that the music from the past two decades will be as popular as classic rock 30 years from now. This one is pure subjective opinion, but album sales back this up.

Either respond to something I've actually said or just don't bother.

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2018, 04:21:37 pm »
Quickly wanted to say that of course Nas as an artist is not more famous than The Beatles (or more influential, for that matter). However, Nas had one album, Illmatic, that is one of the most highly regarded and influential rap albums of all time, the reasons for which I detailed in my reply to Cutler. Anyway, I'll say again that I don't care whether you listen to rap or not, but if you self-admittedly have no knowledge of the genre, it's foolish to try and comment on what is famous or influential within that genre. Furthermore, popularity today is, whether you like it or not, important in terms of cultural influence. The idea that rap isn't here to stay is, quite frankly, completely ridiculous. You can care or not care about other peoples' opinions and that's fine, but when it come to cultural influence, the opinions of broader society matter and there's simply no arguing otherwise.

Also, below I posted a screenshot of the top 20 songs of last week. Now, again, none of this means you have to like these songs or rap as a whole, but 12 of the top 20 (and 55 of the top 100) songs on the Billboard charts last week include rappers as either the lead artist or a feature. Clearly, rap has an incredibly prominent place in the current culture and I personally believe that Illmatic is one of the foundational albums in the history of rap. Finally, like so many people, you talk about how rap is transient, ruining music, etc. but the idea that it won't have staying power is ridiculous. Of course the shitty rappers will be forgotten (just as so many lesser rock bands from the 60s and 70s have been forgotten), but I guarantee that artists like 2Pac, Biggie, Eminem, Jay-Z, Kanye, Kendrick etc. will have their classics and be remembered 30 years in the future.

A reminder of what rules music taste today (asteriks indicate rappers, slashes indicate a rap feature):
Spoiler (hover to show)

Caleb, you seriously need to practice your reading comprehension. Not once did I try to comment on what albums/artists are influential within the category of rap. Not once did I say that popularity wasn't important in terms of cultural influence. Not once did I state unequivocally that rap "isn't here to stay." Not once did I say that rap was "ruining music." You are arguing against statements I never made, and which quite frankly have no bearing on this discussion at all. Every claim I've made throughout this discussion can be summed up as follows:

- "Illmatic" is not as famous as Sgt. Pepper's.

- I like melodies and instruments in my music and therefore don't get anything out of rap. This is a matter of personal taste. Cutler is going to attempt to prove that melody is more common in rap than I think it is, which I'm sure is possible-- but a tall order to prove, especially given that Wikipedia's article on Rap says "Raps are sometimes delivered with melody," in other words stating that this is an exception to the rule.

- The cultural zeitgeist doesn't matter to me and I will not listen to a particular kind of music because other people like it. You appear to take exception to this stance, to the point that you're putting words in my mouth/posting all sorts of recent Billboard charts. You literally sound like a DC fanboy attempting to argue that box office numbers are an indicator of quality.

- I doubt that the music from the past two decades will be as popular as classic rock 30 years from now. This one is pure subjective opinion, but album sales back this up.

Either respond to something I've actually said or just don't bother.
I think the inference I was making was pretty basic- rap is music's most popular genre, Illmatic is possibly rap's most influential album, ergo Illmatic is an incredibly influential album overall. I'm not going to go back and read through every post, but I think influence has been the main point throughout this entire debate (and is at least somewhat relevant to your first point about fame either way). Your second and third points about not caring about rap or the zeitgeist are fine points of view to have, but you have to understand that what I (and others) have been saying this whole time is that they undermine the credibility of your argument when the discussion is about influence. That's also a point in which popularity enters again; nowhere did I say that makes rap better (because of that, your DC comment was pretty retarded) only that it shows the importance of rap in the picture of modern music. It also doubles as a fairly strong argument as to your fourth point, but that one's a bit separate so I'll let it be.

Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2018, 07:47:37 pm »
I think the inference I was making was pretty basic- rap is music's most popular genre, Illmatic is possibly rap's most influential album, ergo Illmatic is an incredibly influential album overall. I'm not going to go back and read through every post, but I think influence has been the main point throughout this entire debate (and is at least somewhat relevant to your first point about fame either way). Your second and third points about not caring about rap or the zeitgeist are fine points of view to have, but you have to understand that what I (and others) have been saying this whole time is that they undermine the credibility of your argument when the discussion is about influence. That's also a point in which popularity enters again; nowhere did I say that makes rap better (because of that, your DC comment was pretty retarded) only that it shows the importance of rap in the picture of modern music. It also doubles as a fairly strong argument as to your fourth point, but that one's a bit separate so I'll let it be.

This debate pertains to influence only insofar as it relates to the dumb comparison you made that started us off. I honestly do not understand what you hope to accomplish with your statements about rap's overall influence. I never questioned the importance of rap in modern music. Again, respond to something I've actually said or don't bother.

 

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