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Author Topic: The D.I.E.G.O. System  (Read 605 times)

Kale Pasta

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2018, 08:10:40 pm »
I think the inference I was making was pretty basic- rap is music's most popular genre, Illmatic is possibly rap's most influential album, ergo Illmatic is an incredibly influential album overall. I'm not going to go back and read through every post, but I think influence has been the main point throughout this entire debate (and is at least somewhat relevant to your first point about fame either way). Your second and third points about not caring about rap or the zeitgeist are fine points of view to have, but you have to understand that what I (and others) have been saying this whole time is that they undermine the credibility of your argument when the discussion is about influence. That's also a point in which popularity enters again; nowhere did I say that makes rap better (because of that, your DC comment was pretty retarded) only that it shows the importance of rap in the picture of modern music. It also doubles as a fairly strong argument as to your fourth point, but that one's a bit separate so I'll let it be.

This debate pertains to influence only insofar as it relates to the dumb comparison you made that started us off. I honestly do not understand what you hope to accomplish with your statements about rap's overall influence. I never questioned the importance of rap in modern music. Again, respond to something I've actually said or don't bother.
This whole debate started with the point I made to start off so claiming that I'm talking about irrelevant shit when I'm literally staying on subject is completely asinine. You also ignored my first sentence where I laid out my thought process of influence. Also, in my previous post I systematically laid out how everything I said related to the four points you brought up so perhaps you should take a look at what both of us are saying and study who's really reading and responding to the other person here.

Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2018, 08:25:33 pm »
I think the inference I was making was pretty basic- rap is music's most popular genre, Illmatic is possibly rap's most influential album, ergo Illmatic is an incredibly influential album overall. I'm not going to go back and read through every post, but I think influence has been the main point throughout this entire debate (and is at least somewhat relevant to your first point about fame either way). Your second and third points about not caring about rap or the zeitgeist are fine points of view to have, but you have to understand that what I (and others) have been saying this whole time is that they undermine the credibility of your argument when the discussion is about influence. That's also a point in which popularity enters again; nowhere did I say that makes rap better (because of that, your DC comment was pretty retarded) only that it shows the importance of rap in the picture of modern music. It also doubles as a fairly strong argument as to your fourth point, but that one's a bit separate so I'll let it be.

This debate pertains to influence only insofar as it relates to the dumb comparison you made that started us off. I honestly do not understand what you hope to accomplish with your statements about rap's overall influence. I never questioned the importance of rap in modern music. Again, respond to something I've actually said or don't bother.
This whole debate started with the point I made to start off so claiming that I'm talking about irrelevant shit when I'm literally staying on subject is completely asinine. You also ignored my first sentence where I laid out my thought process of influence. Also, in my previous post I systematically laid out how everything I said related to the four points you brought up so perhaps you should take a look at what both of us are saying and study who's really reading and responding to the other person here.

Allow me to lay this out for you in a way you might understand.

I think the inference I was making was pretty basic- rap is music's most popular genre, Illmatic is possibly rap's most influential album, ergo Illmatic is an incredibly influential album overall.

I never questioned that "Illmatic" was an influential album, so this sentence was pointless.

I'm not going to go back and read through every post, but I think influence has been the main point throughout this entire debate (and is at least somewhat relevant to your first point about fame either way).

This debate is not solely about influence. It is partially about whether or not your statement regarding Sgt. Pepper's was fair. That is the only way popularity relates to our discussion. The rest of this has centered around my assertion that I don't care if other people like a particular genre of music, something you take exception to. This sentence was pointless.

Your second and third points about not caring about rap or the zeitgeist are fine points of view to have, but you have to understand that what I (and others) have been saying this whole time is that they undermine the credibility of your argument when the discussion is about influence.

I do not need to establish any "credibility" to prove the self-evident fact that your comparison was dumb. Not knowing about the particular album in your comparison does not change this. This sentence was pointless.

That's also a point in which popularity enters again; nowhere did I say that makes rap better (because of that, your DC comment was pretty retarded) only that it shows the importance of rap in the picture of modern music.

I can't think of a reason why you're bringing up the general popularity of rap here, because it has never been and will never be relevant to what we're discussing. I only made four assertions throughout this conversation, and none of them can be proven or disproven by citing rap's popularity. Thus, you have left me to guess as to your motivation in citing these statistics. This sentence was pointless, because you still haven't explained what you hope to accomplish by bringing up the genre's popularity.

It also doubles as a fairly strong argument as to your fourth point, but that one's a bit separate so I'll let it be.

The only sentence in your post with a point. Ironically, it's also the one you explored the least. Explain what you mean by this and perhaps we'll be able to have a real conversation.

Tho Master Fie

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2018, 08:46:52 pm »
Kale is right, but Diego has better taste in music.
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Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2018, 08:59:47 pm »
Kale is right, but Diego has better taste in music.

Thanks, but I don't know what he can be "right" about given that he hasn't been responding to the things I've actually said.

Kale Pasta

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2018, 09:46:09 pm »
First off, just wanted to apologize for my tone in my last post, I know I was overly hostile and honestly was mad about something in real life and directed it at you. My bad there my dude.

Anyway, what I was trying to get across as my overarching point in bringing up Illmatic's huge influence within the rap genre and rap as the most popular genre of the moment (and really last 15+ years, I'd say) is that this, transitively, makes it one of the most influential albums ever. If you, as I do, accept the premise that Illmatic is rap's most influential album, then I think it's logical to compare it to other hugely influential works. That's why I said it's fair to compare the influence of Illmatic and Sgt. Pepper; the most influential album (imo of course) of the most influential genre can stack up to nearly anything, in my opinion. Hopefully that makes sense for why I drew these comparisons and discussed rap's popularity (should address your first two points in the previous comment regarding why those sentences aren't pointless).

The credibility argument exists in a similar vein. Because you, self-admittedly, have little to no knowledge of rap, you aren't in a place to determine how much Illmatic influenced other rap albums. I think we agree on that point. However, what I'm saying is that because Illmatic is, in my opinion, the most influential rap album ever made, it can be compared to other highly influential albums from other genres, such as Sgt. Pepper. Because you can't really say how influential Illmatic is or isn't (obviously many would argue for other albums as rap's most influential, and that's fair), you can't really make a determination on how much it impacted its genre of music. The other piece of the popularity point is that influencing rap is a really big deal in an era when rap is the dominant form of music. Hopefully that makes sense as to why I cited rap's popularity; because Illmatic had a strong influence on rap, I think it's influence is larger than some influential Shoegaze album. Obviously Sgt. Pepper is not that, but the point I was trying to make is that Illmatic can basically stack up to anything if you accept, as I happen to, that it's the most influential rap album ever made.

Please let me know (or anyone else, for that matter) if this argument is illogical, because it makes sense from my point of view but naturally that doesn't make it sensical for others.

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2018, 10:07:06 pm »
Kale is right, but Diego has better taste in music.

Don't you listen to Cloud Nothings?  I don't think you can judge people's taste in music.
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Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2018, 10:19:31 pm »
First off, just wanted to apologize for my tone in my last post, I know I was overly hostile and honestly was mad about something in real life and directed it at you. My bad there my dude.

Anyway, what I was trying to get across as my overarching point in bringing up Illmatic's huge influence within the rap genre and rap as the most popular genre of the moment (and really last 15+ years, I'd say) is that this, transitively, makes it one of the most influential albums ever. If you, as I do, accept the premise that Illmatic is rap's most influential album, then I think it's logical to compare it to other hugely influential works. That's why I said it's fair to compare the influence of Illmatic and Sgt. Pepper; the most influential album (imo of course) of the most influential genre can stack up to nearly anything, in my opinion. Hopefully that makes sense for why I drew these comparisons and discussed rap's popularity (should address your first two points in the previous comment regarding why those sentences aren't pointless).

The credibility argument exists in a similar vein. Because you, self-admittedly, have little to no knowledge of rap, you aren't in a place to determine how much Illmatic influenced other rap albums. I think we agree on that point. However, what I'm saying is that because Illmatic is, in my opinion, the most influential rap album ever made, it can be compared to other highly influential albums from other genres, such as Sgt. Pepper. Because you can't really say how influential Illmatic is or isn't (obviously many would argue for other albums as rap's most influential, and that's fair), you can't really make a determination on how much it impacted its genre of music. The other piece of the popularity point is that influencing rap is a really big deal in an era when rap is the dominant form of music. Hopefully that makes sense as to why I cited rap's popularity; because Illmatic had a strong influence on rap, I think it's influence is larger than some influential Shoegaze album. Obviously Sgt. Pepper is not that, but the point I was trying to make is that Illmatic can basically stack up to anything if you accept, as I happen to, that it's the most influential rap album ever made.

Please let me know (or anyone else, for that matter) if this argument is illogical, because it makes sense from my point of view but naturally that doesn't make it sensical for others.

I honestly find this subset of this discussion to be the least-interesting part. But if we're focusing on that comparison here, I'm going to be picky about what you said. You said "Not having heard of an album like Illmatic is like not having heard of Sgt. Pepper's." The goal of this statement was to highlight my ignorance on the subject of rap. Now, this statement might be true for you and for the circle of friends you spend time with, but for the world as a whole, the comparison is simply not fair. If you surveyed 100 of the most isolated Mongolian falconers, Congolese tribesmen, and Afghan warlords on the planet, I guarantee you at least a handful of them will have heard of Sgt. Pepper's one way or another. None will have heard of "Illmatic." The same goes for regular people on the street. The cultural saturation is not comparable. I don't care if Illmatic is the most influential rap album or not (there appears to be some disagreement between you and Cutler on that point). And I would be taking exception to this if you had used Thriller, Dark Side of the Moon, or Led Zeppelin IV in that comparison. Again, I care very little about this particular aspect of the discussion, but the fact that you still haven't tried to walk the comment back, and are in fact doubling down on it, is what I find funny.

Your fallacy here, I think, is the assumption that a highly influential album in one genre = a highly influential album in another. This is just not true at all. It's like saying that The Pleasure Principle (an album I hadn't heard of until 30 seconds ago) is as famous as Abbey Road, solely because it was a highly influential synth pop album. No, I can't comment on synth pop or how influential that album was within its genre, but as a human being who has lived on Earth for the past 20 years, I can say definitively that it's no Sgt. Pepper's. So no, even if I accept your premise that Illmatic is the most influential rap album (something I'm not qualified to comment on, as you have noted), that doesn't make the comparison fair.

Kale Pasta

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2018, 10:38:22 pm »
First off, just wanted to apologize for my tone in my last post, I know I was overly hostile and honestly was mad about something in real life and directed it at you. My bad there my dude.

Anyway, what I was trying to get across as my overarching point in bringing up Illmatic's huge influence within the rap genre and rap as the most popular genre of the moment (and really last 15+ years, I'd say) is that this, transitively, makes it one of the most influential albums ever. If you, as I do, accept the premise that Illmatic is rap's most influential album, then I think it's logical to compare it to other hugely influential works. That's why I said it's fair to compare the influence of Illmatic and Sgt. Pepper; the most influential album (imo of course) of the most influential genre can stack up to nearly anything, in my opinion. Hopefully that makes sense for why I drew these comparisons and discussed rap's popularity (should address your first two points in the previous comment regarding why those sentences aren't pointless).

The credibility argument exists in a similar vein. Because you, self-admittedly, have little to no knowledge of rap, you aren't in a place to determine how much Illmatic influenced other rap albums. I think we agree on that point. However, what I'm saying is that because Illmatic is, in my opinion, the most influential rap album ever made, it can be compared to other highly influential albums from other genres, such as Sgt. Pepper. Because you can't really say how influential Illmatic is or isn't (obviously many would argue for other albums as rap's most influential, and that's fair), you can't really make a determination on how much it impacted its genre of music. The other piece of the popularity point is that influencing rap is a really big deal in an era when rap is the dominant form of music. Hopefully that makes sense as to why I cited rap's popularity; because Illmatic had a strong influence on rap, I think it's influence is larger than some influential Shoegaze album. Obviously Sgt. Pepper is not that, but the point I was trying to make is that Illmatic can basically stack up to anything if you accept, as I happen to, that it's the most influential rap album ever made.

Please let me know (or anyone else, for that matter) if this argument is illogical, because it makes sense from my point of view but naturally that doesn't make it sensical for others.

I honestly find this subset of this discussion to be the least-interesting part. But if we're focusing on that comparison here, I'm going to be picky about what you said. You said "Not having heard of an album like Illmatic is like not having heard of Sgt. Pepper's." The goal of this statement was to highlight my ignorance on the subject of rap. Now, this statement might be true for you and for the circle of friends you spend time with, but for the world as a whole, the comparison is simply not fair. If you surveyed 100 of the most isolated Mongolian falconers, Congolese tribesmen, and Afghan warlords on the planet, I guarantee you at least a handful of them will have heard of Sgt. Pepper's one way or another. None will have heard of "Illmatic." The same goes for regular people on the street. The cultural saturation is not comparable. I don't care if Illmatic is the most influential rap album or not (there appears to be some disagreement between you and Cutler on that point). And I would be taking exception to this if you had used Thriller, Dark Side of the Moon, or Led Zeppelin IV in that comparison. Again, I care very little about this particular aspect of the discussion, but the fact that you still haven't tried to walk the comment back, and are in fact doubling down on it, is what I find funny.

Your fallacy here, I think, is the assumption that a highly influential album in one genre = a highly influential album in another. This is just not true at all. It's like saying that The Pleasure Principle (an album I hadn't heard of until 30 seconds ago) is as famous as Abbey Road, solely because it was a highly influential synth pop album. No, I can't comment on synth pop or how influential that album was within its genre, but as a human being who has lived on Earth for the past 20 years, I can say definitively that it's no Sgt. Pepper's. So no, even if I accept your premise that Illmatic is the most influential rap album (something I'm not qualified to comment on, as you have noted), that doesn't make the comparison fair.
I think I directly assessed the fallacy that you're referring to though; I just think that having a huge impact on the rap genre is more important than you do. My argument is predicated on the idea that Illmatic is the most influential album of today's most important genre (culturally speaking), and that this makes it an important piece of music to be aware of. Comparing rap to a synth pop album is disingenuous, a point I actually made when I mentioned "Shoegaze" (some random subgenre of rock).

While I'm not going to pretend to know what's popular amongst Mongolians or Tunisians, but I do think some of what you bring up "as a human being" is reflective of how you grew up. Put this question to kids in Harlem (Nas is a New York rapper) and I guarantee they will be as shocked about you not knowing Illmatic as you are with me drawing the comparison. That was the point Danny and Cutler were getting at as well; people interact with culture differently and you shouldn't dismiss the importance and cultural saturation of influential works like Illmatic just because you don't care for the genre they belong to.

Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2018, 10:50:24 pm »
First off, just wanted to apologize for my tone in my last post, I know I was overly hostile and honestly was mad about something in real life and directed it at you. My bad there my dude.

Anyway, what I was trying to get across as my overarching point in bringing up Illmatic's huge influence within the rap genre and rap as the most popular genre of the moment (and really last 15+ years, I'd say) is that this, transitively, makes it one of the most influential albums ever. If you, as I do, accept the premise that Illmatic is rap's most influential album, then I think it's logical to compare it to other hugely influential works. That's why I said it's fair to compare the influence of Illmatic and Sgt. Pepper; the most influential album (imo of course) of the most influential genre can stack up to nearly anything, in my opinion. Hopefully that makes sense for why I drew these comparisons and discussed rap's popularity (should address your first two points in the previous comment regarding why those sentences aren't pointless).

The credibility argument exists in a similar vein. Because you, self-admittedly, have little to no knowledge of rap, you aren't in a place to determine how much Illmatic influenced other rap albums. I think we agree on that point. However, what I'm saying is that because Illmatic is, in my opinion, the most influential rap album ever made, it can be compared to other highly influential albums from other genres, such as Sgt. Pepper. Because you can't really say how influential Illmatic is or isn't (obviously many would argue for other albums as rap's most influential, and that's fair), you can't really make a determination on how much it impacted its genre of music. The other piece of the popularity point is that influencing rap is a really big deal in an era when rap is the dominant form of music. Hopefully that makes sense as to why I cited rap's popularity; because Illmatic had a strong influence on rap, I think it's influence is larger than some influential Shoegaze album. Obviously Sgt. Pepper is not that, but the point I was trying to make is that Illmatic can basically stack up to anything if you accept, as I happen to, that it's the most influential rap album ever made.

Please let me know (or anyone else, for that matter) if this argument is illogical, because it makes sense from my point of view but naturally that doesn't make it sensical for others.

I honestly find this subset of this discussion to be the least-interesting part. But if we're focusing on that comparison here, I'm going to be picky about what you said. You said "Not having heard of an album like Illmatic is like not having heard of Sgt. Pepper's." The goal of this statement was to highlight my ignorance on the subject of rap. Now, this statement might be true for you and for the circle of friends you spend time with, but for the world as a whole, the comparison is simply not fair. If you surveyed 100 of the most isolated Mongolian falconers, Congolese tribesmen, and Afghan warlords on the planet, I guarantee you at least a handful of them will have heard of Sgt. Pepper's one way or another. None will have heard of "Illmatic." The same goes for regular people on the street. The cultural saturation is not comparable. I don't care if Illmatic is the most influential rap album or not (there appears to be some disagreement between you and Cutler on that point). And I would be taking exception to this if you had used Thriller, Dark Side of the Moon, or Led Zeppelin IV in that comparison. Again, I care very little about this particular aspect of the discussion, but the fact that you still haven't tried to walk the comment back, and are in fact doubling down on it, is what I find funny.

Your fallacy here, I think, is the assumption that a highly influential album in one genre = a highly influential album in another. This is just not true at all. It's like saying that The Pleasure Principle (an album I hadn't heard of until 30 seconds ago) is as famous as Abbey Road, solely because it was a highly influential synth pop album. No, I can't comment on synth pop or how influential that album was within its genre, but as a human being who has lived on Earth for the past 20 years, I can say definitively that it's no Sgt. Pepper's. So no, even if I accept your premise that Illmatic is the most influential rap album (something I'm not qualified to comment on, as you have noted), that doesn't make the comparison fair.
I think I directly assessed the fallacy that you're referring to though; I just think that having a huge impact on the rap genre is more important than you do. My argument is predicated on the idea that Illmatic is the most influential album of today's most important genre (culturally speaking), and that this makes it an important piece of music to be aware of. Comparing rap to a synth pop album is disingenuous, a point I actually made when I mentioned "Shoegaze" (some random subgenre of rock).

While I'm not going to pretend to know what's popular amongst Mongolians or Tunisians, but I do think some of what you bring up "as a human being" is reflective of how you grew up. Put this question to kids in Harlem (Nas is a New York rapper) and I guarantee they will be as shocked about you not knowing Illmatic as you are with me drawing the comparison. That was the point Danny and Cutler were getting at as well; people interact with culture differently and you shouldn't dismiss the importance and cultural saturation of influential works like Illmatic just because you don't care for the genre they belong to.

You do not get to redefine the sample size in order to conjure up a specific demographic for which your argument holds true. Your initial statement was generalized to the populace as a whole. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people have heard of Illmatic. But those people have also heard of Sgt. Pepper's. And there are way, way more people who have heard of Sgt. Pepper's but have never heard of "Nas." Don't even try to dispute this fact. That would be laughable.

And again, you say "I just think that having a huge impact on the rap genre is more important than you do." Yeah, we get it. Rap is important to you and it's not important to me. You think it's "important" to be aware of Illmatic. But that doesn't mean your initial comparison suddenly makes sense. Sure, it's apparently influential and a lot of people probably care about it. But that's a specific demographic (young people in urban areas in the US), while The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Michael Jackson, and Pink Floyd have achieved cultural saturation worldwide.

Also, you are literally changing the parameters of the argument with every post you make. Let's make this crystal clear:

Not once did I, Diego John Tutweiller, deny the importance of Mr. Nas or his fine album, Illmatic. I said I did not like rap personally, and that the album is incomparable in cultural saturation with another specific album which happens to be the most iconic album of all time.

So you can stop ending all of your posts with a sentence implying that I said "Rap is stoopid and nobody has ever heard of Illmatic." Because I didn't.

cupcake

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2018, 11:04:50 pm »
Rap is important to you and it's not important to me. You think it's "important" to be aware of Illmatic. But that doesn't mean your initial comparison suddenly makes sense. Sure, it's apparently influential and a lot of people probably care about it. But that's a specific demographic (young people in urban areas in the US), while The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Michael Jackson, and Pink Floyd have achieved cultural saturation worldwide.


I hope you're only talking about Illmatic and not rap as a whole when artists like Eminem, Drake, Jay Z and many more have all broken international sales and have fans all across the map.  Rap has even found its way into that godawful K-pop genre.
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Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2018, 11:14:52 pm »
Rap is important to you and it's not important to me. You think it's "important" to be aware of Illmatic. But that doesn't mean your initial comparison suddenly makes sense. Sure, it's apparently influential and a lot of people probably care about it. But that's a specific demographic (young people in urban areas in the US), while The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Michael Jackson, and Pink Floyd have achieved cultural saturation worldwide.


I hope you're only talking about Illmatic and not rap as a whole when artists like Eminem, Drake, Jay Z and many more have all broken international sales and have fans all across the map.  Rap has even found its way into that godawful K-pop genre.

Yeah, just the single album. And I was basing that comment on Kale's reference to Harlem.

cupcake

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2018, 11:15:41 pm »
Also, I think it's hilarious that two pasty skin white people (both of which have never experienced one day of true struggle) are arguing on rap's influence. 
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Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2018, 11:22:58 pm »
Also, I think it's hilarious that two pasty skin white people (both of which have never experienced one day of true struggle) are arguing on rap's influence. 

Rap's influence is not a subject of debate here. Also, I experienced hardship every day I sat down for a month after my ass surgery.

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2018, 03:53:13 pm »
In an interesting coincidence, The Guardian also happens to weigh in on our debate in their interview with Nine Inch Nails' Trent Reznor. With its title (You’re seeing the fall of America in real time), I could well have posted it on the politics thread, but I feel this is the part Oasis would care about the most:

"While he admits that his alienation from pop culture might be down to his age, he suggests that he would like as many thinkpieces devoted to rock – presumably including him – as there are about hip-hop. “How many Kanye West thinkpieces have the Guardian done in the last fucking month?” he asks. Er, a few. “The guy’s lost his fucking mind: that’s the thinkpiece. His record sucked, and that’s it. He has made great shit; he’s not in a great place right now.” So you’d like the conversation to be wider? “It would be nice, but there’s no appetite.”"


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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2018, 05:55:28 pm »
I mean David Bowie’s final album Blackstar was heavily inspired by Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp a Butterfly. Bowie and his production team listened to it a lot during the production phase.

Paul McCartney heavily collaborated with Kanye and they even planned to release a collab album, which unfortunately was shut down due to contractual reasons. McCartney himself has also stated admiration for Kendrick in the past as well, going as far to declare he wants to meet him.

Even if you don’t think rap is an influential or important genre, these legends clearly do. Personally I’d take their word and judgement over some snarky white kid from The Bay.
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Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2018, 08:25:02 pm »
I mean David Bowie’s final album Blackstar was heavily inspired by Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp a Butterfly. Bowie and his production team listened to it a lot during the production phase.

Paul McCartney heavily collaborated with Kanye and they even planned to release a collab album, which unfortunately was shut down due to contractual reasons. McCartney himself has also stated admiration for Kendrick in the past as well, going as far to declare he wants to meet him.

Even if you don’t think rap is an influential or important genre, these legends clearly do. Personally I’d take their word and judgement over some snarky white kid from The Bay.

Danny, don't take this the wrong way. You are legitimately the stupidest person ever to use this site. Let's try to get this through your thick head one last time. After that, you're on your own.

Not once did I, Diego John Tutweiller, deny the importance of Mr. Nas or his fine album, Illmatic. I said I did not like rap personally, and that the album is incomparable in cultural saturation with another specific album which happens to be the most iconic album of all time.


I NEVER SAID THAT RAP WASN'T INFLUENTIAL. NOTHING YOU HAVE WRITTEN HERE IS A RESPONSE TO ANYTHING I'VE SAID. RESPOND TO SOMETHING I'VE ACTUALLY WRITTEN OR DEVOTE YOUR LIMITED BRAINPOWER TO SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE.
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Kale Pasta

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2018, 10:44:23 am »
Forgot to respond to this thread but, Diego, my argument about influence is one that requires extrapolation. The influence of rap as a whole is important for the same reason you bringing up synth-pop is relevant; if I am to make the argument that rap is the country's most important genre and has been for the previous 15-20 years, then it logically follows that I think Illmatic is one of the most important albums of all time.

Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2018, 06:24:06 pm »
Forgot to respond to this thread but, Diego, my argument about influence is one that requires extrapolation. The influence of rap as a whole is important for the same reason you bringing up synth-pop is relevant; if I am to make the argument that rap is the country's most important genre and has been for the previous 15-20 years, then it logically follows that I think Illmatic is one of the most important albums of all time.

I don't care how important you think it is. Your subjective opinion doesn't matter here. This discussion is about the statement you made that started us off, and how it was quite plainly factually inaccurate.

Kale Pasta

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2018, 11:11:34 pm »
Forgot to respond to this thread but, Diego, my argument about influence is one that requires extrapolation. The influence of rap as a whole is important for the same reason you bringing up synth-pop is relevant; if I am to make the argument that rap is the country's most important genre and has been for the previous 15-20 years, then it logically follows that I think Illmatic is one of the most important albums of all time.

I don't care how important you think it is. Your subjective opinion doesn't matter here. This discussion is about the statement you made that started us off, and how it was quite plainly factually inaccurate.
I mean, the whole question of cultural relevance and influence is inherently subjective. Clearly I'm not breaking through here, so I'll reframe this: Think of Illmatic as Pulp Fiction; extremely influential, famous works that had substantial influence. Now, is Pulp Fiction the most influential movie of all time? Nah (although it's pretty important). Did it have an out of this world box office gross? Nah (although it did do really well). Despite these two facts, it is extremely highly regarded and not having heard of it would be surprising.

Tut

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Re: The D.I.E.G.O. System
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2018, 03:43:18 am »
Forgot to respond to this thread but, Diego, my argument about influence is one that requires extrapolation. The influence of rap as a whole is important for the same reason you bringing up synth-pop is relevant; if I am to make the argument that rap is the country's most important genre and has been for the previous 15-20 years, then it logically follows that I think Illmatic is one of the most important albums of all time.

I don't care how important you think it is. Your subjective opinion doesn't matter here. This discussion is about the statement you made that started us off, and how it was quite plainly factually inaccurate.
I mean, the whole question of cultural relevance and influence is inherently subjective. Clearly I'm not breaking through here, so I'll reframe this: Think of Illmatic as Pulp Fiction; extremely influential, famous works that had substantial influence. Now, is Pulp Fiction the most influential movie of all time? Nah (although it's pretty important). Did it have an out of this world box office gross? Nah (although it did do really well). Despite these two facts, it is extremely highly regarded and not having heard of it would be surprising.

Yeah... but not as surprising as not having heard of Citizen Kane.

 

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