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Author Topic: Tut University Presents: Star Trek: The Original Series 101  (Read 336 times)

Tut

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Tut University Presents: Star Trek: The Original Series 101
« on: December 02, 2016, 02:39:42 am »
If you know me, you know that I can be a very negative person. I dislike about 75% of the films that I see and I am very cynical about the state of filmmaking today. I hate Democrats, Republicans, eggplant, dubstep, processed cheese, Zack Snyder, insurance companies, communism, tabloids, country music, and the entire state of Florida. And I put a lot of energy into my many hatreds... as evidenced by this course's predecessor. I think about these things so much, the world sometimes seems very depressing. And when things get that way, I know there's only one thing to do. Watch Star Trek.

This wonderful show is appreciated to this day for its wit, prescience, and political statements. Not only is it original and well-written, but it created a climate in pop culture that gave rise to the creation of many other sci-fi franchises everyone loves today, Star Wars included. Many years later, it would contribute to the inspiration behind Firefly, the spiritual successor to Star Trek, in that it was a space western with something to say, but was sadly cut short before it could finish saying it. It, like Star Trek, has much to teach us. But Star Trek alone possesses the warmth and poetry that neither its many sequels nor its many imitators have been able to duplicate.

Today, Star Trek is best known as an under-performing Paramount property comprised of a movie in which a crazy man plots his revenge on Kirk, a second movie in which a crazy man plots his revenge on Kirk, and a third movie in which a crazy man plots his revenge on Kirk. But the Original Series, unlike Abrams' Star Wars Trek, was not made for its dazzling special effects. Rather, it was made for its unwaveringly optimistic view of the future, and for the morals it so expertly imparts upon its viewers. Its flawless characterization and endlessly inventive stories more than make up for its low budget-- a concept that has, sadly, been lost to time.

In this thread, I will post some thoughts on why this series is still relevant today (perhaps now more than ever). Feel free to join in. I know some of you know and love this show as well, and any insights you may have are more than welcome. It will be nice to have something positive to say for a change.

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Tut

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The Ultimate Computer: Season 2, Episode 24

Since I have no interest in doing these in order, I'll start with an episode that is wholly relevant to our present-day political situation. In The Ultimate Computer, a black science man invents a computer intelligent enough to run an entire starship with only a few members of the crew left over to service it. When the Enterprise is chosen as the perfect candidate for a test voyage utilizing the new device, Kirk has to deal with the prospect of becoming "non-essential personnel."

When I watched this episode again recently, I was struck with the realization that it serves as a perfect explanation for the reasoning behind a certain election you may have heard about recently. The idea of technological progress itself is not terrible, but in the words of Kirk, "There are some things men must do to remain men." I believe this is how many working-class voters in the rust belt felt this past November when they cast their votes. At the very idea of the ship being taken over by a machine, the audience has a gut reaction of outrage, the kind that cannot be attributed to "logical" thought. But as the episode proceeds, we begin to understand that humans, with all their eccentricities, are often indisputably superior to the machines they create.

A secondary conflict with Spock rounds out this episode's intelligent social commentary. The ever-logical first officer finds the computer "fascinating" and praises its creator's genius and ingenuity. However, when push comes to shove, he completely rejects it, saying "Computers make excellent and efficient servants, but I have no wish to serve under them. Captain, the starship also runs on loyalty to one man. And nothing can replace it, or him."

Oh, Spock. Such wisdom.



Anyway, I thought some of the more politically-minded folk on here would find this episode intriguing (Neville especially).
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Robert Neville

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Anyway, I thought some of the more politically-minded folk on here would find this episode intriguing (Neville especially).

It sounds interesting indeed. By a weird coincidence, you've posted this soon after I read Wikipedia article on Project Cybersyn, which actually tried to do just that on the scale of an entire country, and was remarkably promising for 1972 technology. (Though MAGI in Japanese Evangelion is probably the closest fictional counterpart.) I wonder what Raynor thinks about it.


Tut

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The Doomsday Machine: Season 2, Episode 6

I was thinking about this recently, so I'm going to jot down some more notes here on how Star Trek remains relevant to modern politics. Because the dilemmas presented for the characters in this series are so universal, the show will always have some relevance-- but I think this episode has a unique applicability to the Trump administration.

The Doomsday Machine is about a massive planet-killing device built by aliens in another galaxy, which has outlived the civilization that constructed it, and has gone about ripping through worlds on an unstoppable path ever since. In this episode, it reaches Federation space and makes a beeline for Earth. This is widely considered to be one of Star Trek's best episodes, and in my opinion it's the best episode of the show, period. The buildup of tension, the action, and the pounding musical score are completely ingrained into my memory. And of course, the weapon itself is iconic.



But this episode also manages to ask some interesting questions, as Star Trek always does. During the pursuit of the massive superweapon, the Enterprise is commandeered by a Starfleet admiral whose ship was already destroyed by the machine. Wanting revenge, he asserts his rank in Kirk's absence, taking control of the bridge. After seeing his entire crew killed, he's become something of a Captain Ahab-- he's out for revenge at any cost.

As such, the admiral acts recklessly with his command, violating many norms of protocol. Bones demands that Spock remove him from the captain's chair, but Spock-- ever-logical-- refuses to do so until the admiral outright violates Starfleet orders. When he finally does, Spock immediately declares him unfit for duty and takes control himself, undoing the admiral's suicidal attack orders.

To me, this is how the left should be dealing with Trump. Right now they're being Bones-- emotional, angry, and looking for an excuse to kick Donald out of the captain's chair. But if they don't do it right, they'll be breaking "regulations" (the constitution) and ironically endangering "the starship" (The US) even further. In dealing with Trump, they need to be Spock-- reserved, level-headed, but always on alert for something that is actually illegal so they can call Trump on it. None of this "two scoops" bullshit. The moral of the story: If you want to tear someone down, wait until you've got them up against the wall before you make your move. If you lash out at every little thing they do, you just make them look like a martyr, and you turn yourself into "The Leftist who Cried Collusion."

Oh, and the machine itself is a great analogy for nuclear weapons. But that's for another time.

ChillinDylan Godsend

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To me, this is how the left should be dealing with Trump. Right now they're being Bones-- emotional, angry, and looking for an excuse to kick Donald out of the captain's chair. But if they don't do it right, they'll be breaking "regulations" (the constitution) and ironically endangering "the starship" (The US) even further. In dealing with Trump, they need to be Spock-- reserved, level-headed, but always on alert for something that is actually illegal so they can call Trump on it. None of this "two scoops" bullshit. The moral of the story: If you want to tear someone down, wait until you've got them up against the wall before you make your move. If you lash out at every little thing they do, you just make them look like a martyr, and you turn yourself into "The Leftist who Cried Collusion."


If I were a Republican, I wouldn't want you on the Democrat side.  They have yet to figure out this is HOW you bring down Trump.  But instead of making calculated attacks on him, they go with 24/7 emotional scattershot tirades that often either are not true or are not at all relevant.  They simply can't help themselves.  And all that does is give Trump the ammo to rile up his base and bring over those who are on-the-fence. 

Take this immigration situation for instance.  They succeeded in putting Trump's feet to the fire on separating families.  As well they should.  Even though these same exact things happened under Obama's watch, the Democrats were able to control the narrative to the point where they had him and the Republicans backed into a corner.  Unfortunately for them, they didn't see the whole picture.  Yesterday and today, Trump completely turned the tables on them.  First, he signs an EO to keep these families together, and then today invites all Democrats in Congress to the White House to discuss a permanent fix.  Now the Democrats are on their heels because their options are:  1-Go to the White House and look weak (which won't happen), 2-Do nothing and look like the party of obstruction (which is likely), or 3-Try to spin the narrative back on him (which they've already begun to do).  Problem is, the narrative they are NOW spinning is that incarcerating families is evil. 

Well, the problem with that is, they ASKED for families to be kept together.  So he signs an EO to do this.  Now, they are saying that's evil.  The bad optics have now switched to their side because, in reality, they want fully open borders - but that's a losing message, so they can't really say that.  But they can't go to the White House and work WITH the President and give him a victory either.  So they are stuck.

BTW, I believe that BOTH sides - Republicans and Democrats - couldn't give a single rat's ass about those kids.  It's ALL political posturing - NONE of these elected officials really care if they live, die, or even exist.  Rachel Maddow's "breaking down in elephant tears" was pathetic, as is the dog and pony show of FLOTUS visiting these enclosures today.  It's all partisan nonsense and, while I do enjoy the spin-doctoring as a craft, it tends to become white noise after a while - which goes to your original point.


EDIT:  This shit right here is a PERFECT example.  With everything going on, here is today's tweet from this "news" reporter...


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Tut

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If I were a Republican, I wouldn't want you on the Democrat side.  They have yet to figure out this is HOW you bring down Trump.  But instead of making calculated attacks on him, they go with 24/7 emotional scattershot tirades that often either are not true or are not at all relevant.  They simply can't help themselves.  And all that does is give Trump the ammo to rile up his base and bring over those who are on-the-fence. 

Take this immigration situation for instance.  They succeeded in putting Trump's feet to the fire on separating families.  As well they should.  Even though these same exact things happened under Obama's watch, the Democrats were able to control the narrative to the point where they had him and the Republicans backed into a corner.  Unfortunately for them, they didn't see the whole picture.  Yesterday and today, Trump completely turned the tables on them.  First, he signs an EO to keep these families together, and then today invites all Democrats in Congress to the White House to discuss a permanent fix.  Now the Democrats are on their heels because their options are:  1-Go to the White House and look weak (which won't happen), 2-Do nothing and look like the party of obstruction (which is likely), or 3-Try to spin the narrative back on him (which they've already begun to do).  Problem is, the narrative they are NOW spinning is that incarcerating families is evil. 

Well, the problem with that is, they ASKED for families to be kept together.  So he signs an EO to do this.  Now, they are saying that's evil.  The bad optics have now switched to their side because, in reality, they want fully open borders - but that's a losing message, so they can't really say that.  But they can't go to the White House and work WITH the President and give him a victory either.  So they are stuck.

BTW, I believe that BOTH sides - Republicans and Democrats - couldn't give a single rat's ass about those kids.  It's ALL political posturing - NONE of these elected officials really care if they live, die, or even exist.  Rachel Maddow's "breaking down in elephant tears" was pathetic, as is the dog and pony show of FLOTUS visiting these enclosures today.  It's all partisan nonsense and, while I do enjoy the spin-doctoring as a craft, it tends to become white noise after a while - which goes to your original point.

Okay, as to your assertion that these "exact same things" happened under Obama, I'm going to have to call bull. This is Trump's doing. Two days ago, he was saying that he couldn't possibly solve the problem; then today he signs an executive order that ends the practice. Nothing changed in those two days. He was lying. That is a fact. And while this may have happened under Obama from time to time, it was unintentional in most circumstances. Don't make me side with Paasche again.

Having said that, the Dems appear to have won this round. They succeeded in pushing the narrative that these kids were being harmed. Except... really? Are we to believe that these kids lived in cartel towns, fled the violence, traversed the Mexican deserts, and snuck across the border, and this is going to be the thing that scars them for life? I don't buy it for a second. My friend Ignacio came here hidden in the trunk of somebody's car, and was separated from his mom for months. He turned out fine. So as long as these kids are getting food, water, and shelter, I can't say I give a fuck. Blame the parents who dragged them 3,000 miles. No, not every single one of these families is fleeing persecution. And if they want to become Americans, it's pretty ironic that the first thing they've done in their new country is violate our national autonomy.

I do think the Dems will continue to push on this issue, and it'll gradually become less relevant as the family separations fade in people's minds.

ChillinDylan Godsend

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If I were a Republican, I wouldn't want you on the Democrat side.  They have yet to figure out this is HOW you bring down Trump.  But instead of making calculated attacks on him, they go with 24/7 emotional scattershot tirades that often either are not true or are not at all relevant.  They simply can't help themselves.  And all that does is give Trump the ammo to rile up his base and bring over those who are on-the-fence. 

Take this immigration situation for instance.  They succeeded in putting Trump's feet to the fire on separating families.  As well they should.  Even though these same exact things happened under Obama's watch, the Democrats were able to control the narrative to the point where they had him and the Republicans backed into a corner.  Unfortunately for them, they didn't see the whole picture.  Yesterday and today, Trump completely turned the tables on them.  First, he signs an EO to keep these families together, and then today invites all Democrats in Congress to the White House to discuss a permanent fix.  Now the Democrats are on their heels because their options are:  1-Go to the White House and look weak (which won't happen), 2-Do nothing and look like the party of obstruction (which is likely), or 3-Try to spin the narrative back on him (which they've already begun to do).  Problem is, the narrative they are NOW spinning is that incarcerating families is evil. 

Well, the problem with that is, they ASKED for families to be kept together.  So he signs an EO to do this.  Now, they are saying that's evil.  The bad optics have now switched to their side because, in reality, they want fully open borders - but that's a losing message, so they can't really say that.  But they can't go to the White House and work WITH the President and give him a victory either.  So they are stuck.

BTW, I believe that BOTH sides - Republicans and Democrats - couldn't give a single rat's ass about those kids.  It's ALL political posturing - NONE of these elected officials really care if they live, die, or even exist.  Rachel Maddow's "breaking down in elephant tears" was pathetic, as is the dog and pony show of FLOTUS visiting these enclosures today.  It's all partisan nonsense and, while I do enjoy the spin-doctoring as a craft, it tends to become white noise after a while - which goes to your original point.

Okay, as to your assertion that these "exact same things" happened under Obama, I'm going to have to call bull. This is Trump's doing. Two days ago, he was saying that he couldn't possibly solve the problem; then today he signs an executive order that ends the practice. Nothing changed in those two days. He was lying. That is a fact. And while this may have happened under Obama from time to time, it was unintentional in most circumstances. Don't make me side with Paasche again.

Having said that, the Dems appear to have won this round. They succeeded in pushing the narrative that these kids were being harmed. Except... really? Are we to believe that these kids lived in cartel towns, fled the violence, traversed the Mexican deserts, and snuck across the border, and this is going to be the thing that scars them for life? I don't buy it for a second. My friend Ignacio came here hidden in the trunk of somebody's car, and was separated from his mom for months. He turned out fine. So as long as these kids are getting food, water, and shelter, I can't say I give a fuck. Blame the parents who dragged them 3,000 miles. No, not every single one of these families is fleeing persecution. And if they want to become Americans, it's pretty ironic that the first thing they've done in their new country is violate our national autonomy.

I do think the Dems will continue to push on this issue, and it'll gradually become less relevant as the family separations fade in people's minds.

Kids were consistently separated and put into cages under the Obama administration.  The photos that the media tried to feign outrage over a couple of weeks ago were from 2014 in the Obama administration.  There are literally pictures of marches with people protesting Obama's policies separating families.  You can call bull all you want - it happened.  If you think this has only started happening under Trump, you are woefully misguided.  Yes, it has happened more under Trump because of their zero tolerance policy and their unwillingness to catch & release.  There are subtle nuanced differences in some of the specs of families being separated, but the fact is that they were separated under the Obama administration and they are being separated under the Trump administration.

And, I'm not a fan of Snopes.  Again, do a little research as to their biases.  But if you want to get into Snopes links, then here:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-dont-separate-mommy-protest-sign-real/

Here are some of the passages to which I am referring:

Obama was referred to by some border activists as the “Deporter-in-Chief” during his time in office, as he deported more people from the United States (thanks in part, but not completely, to a change in definition) than any other president in modern history. Many of these deportations resulted in families being separated, because children born in the United States were allowed to stay in the country but their parents were forced to leave.

A June 2014 article published by the American Civil Liberties Union criticized Obama, saying that he was not living up to the promises he made on immigration during the 2008 campaign, and that deportation was still separating children from their parents under his watch:



Again, nuanced differences that still result in kids being kept in "cages" and families being separated.  Some of these kids were handcuffed and beaten apparently:  https://apnews.com/afc80e51b562462c89907b49ae624e79

So, let's just say that neither administration has their hands clean in this immigration matter. 



Oh, and if you think Trump's EO "solves this problem" as you state, just wait.  It will get challenged and overturned in the courts and they'll be back to square one.  This is a band aid to save face, nothing more.

Tut

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If I were a Republican, I wouldn't want you on the Democrat side.  They have yet to figure out this is HOW you bring down Trump.  But instead of making calculated attacks on him, they go with 24/7 emotional scattershot tirades that often either are not true or are not at all relevant.  They simply can't help themselves.  And all that does is give Trump the ammo to rile up his base and bring over those who are on-the-fence. 

Take this immigration situation for instance.  They succeeded in putting Trump's feet to the fire on separating families.  As well they should.  Even though these same exact things happened under Obama's watch, the Democrats were able to control the narrative to the point where they had him and the Republicans backed into a corner.  Unfortunately for them, they didn't see the whole picture.  Yesterday and today, Trump completely turned the tables on them.  First, he signs an EO to keep these families together, and then today invites all Democrats in Congress to the White House to discuss a permanent fix.  Now the Democrats are on their heels because their options are:  1-Go to the White House and look weak (which won't happen), 2-Do nothing and look like the party of obstruction (which is likely), or 3-Try to spin the narrative back on him (which they've already begun to do).  Problem is, the narrative they are NOW spinning is that incarcerating families is evil. 

Well, the problem with that is, they ASKED for families to be kept together.  So he signs an EO to do this.  Now, they are saying that's evil.  The bad optics have now switched to their side because, in reality, they want fully open borders - but that's a losing message, so they can't really say that.  But they can't go to the White House and work WITH the President and give him a victory either.  So they are stuck.

BTW, I believe that BOTH sides - Republicans and Democrats - couldn't give a single rat's ass about those kids.  It's ALL political posturing - NONE of these elected officials really care if they live, die, or even exist.  Rachel Maddow's "breaking down in elephant tears" was pathetic, as is the dog and pony show of FLOTUS visiting these enclosures today.  It's all partisan nonsense and, while I do enjoy the spin-doctoring as a craft, it tends to become white noise after a while - which goes to your original point.

Okay, as to your assertion that these "exact same things" happened under Obama, I'm going to have to call bull. This is Trump's doing. Two days ago, he was saying that he couldn't possibly solve the problem; then today he signs an executive order that ends the practice. Nothing changed in those two days. He was lying. That is a fact. And while this may have happened under Obama from time to time, it was unintentional in most circumstances. Don't make me side with Paasche again.

Having said that, the Dems appear to have won this round. They succeeded in pushing the narrative that these kids were being harmed. Except... really? Are we to believe that these kids lived in cartel towns, fled the violence, traversed the Mexican deserts, and snuck across the border, and this is going to be the thing that scars them for life? I don't buy it for a second. My friend Ignacio came here hidden in the trunk of somebody's car, and was separated from his mom for months. He turned out fine. So as long as these kids are getting food, water, and shelter, I can't say I give a fuck. Blame the parents who dragged them 3,000 miles. No, not every single one of these families is fleeing persecution. And if they want to become Americans, it's pretty ironic that the first thing they've done in their new country is violate our national autonomy.

I do think the Dems will continue to push on this issue, and it'll gradually become less relevant as the family separations fade in people's minds.

Kids were consistently separated and put into cages under the Obama administration.  The photos that the media tried to feign outrage over a couple of weeks ago were from 2014 in the Obama administration.  There are literally pictures of marches with people protesting Obama's policies separating families.  You can call bull all you want - it happened.  If you think this has only started happening under Trump, you are woefully misguided.  Yes, it has happened more under Trump because of their zero tolerance policy and their unwillingness to catch & release.  There are subtle nuanced differences in some of the specs of families being separated, but the fact is that they were separated under the Obama administration and they are being separated under the Trump administration.

I've gotten calls about this at my internship, so I can guarantee you that I've done my research on the subject. Obama's administration would sometimes prosecute border-crossers if they had already been apprehended and deported before. Very few of them came over with kids, so it was generally a non-issue. The idea of separating families intentionally as a deterrent is something that was dreamt up entirely by the Trump administration. And the zero-tolerance policy is new as well. Remember, I only care about this insofar as it pertains to the truth. I have no dog in this fight. But don't say blatant falsehoods like that and expect no one to correct you on it.

ChillinDylan Godsend

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If I were a Republican, I wouldn't want you on the Democrat side.  They have yet to figure out this is HOW you bring down Trump.  But instead of making calculated attacks on him, they go with 24/7 emotional scattershot tirades that often either are not true or are not at all relevant.  They simply can't help themselves.  And all that does is give Trump the ammo to rile up his base and bring over those who are on-the-fence. 

Take this immigration situation for instance.  They succeeded in putting Trump's feet to the fire on separating families.  As well they should.  Even though these same exact things happened under Obama's watch, the Democrats were able to control the narrative to the point where they had him and the Republicans backed into a corner.  Unfortunately for them, they didn't see the whole picture.  Yesterday and today, Trump completely turned the tables on them.  First, he signs an EO to keep these families together, and then today invites all Democrats in Congress to the White House to discuss a permanent fix.  Now the Democrats are on their heels because their options are:  1-Go to the White House and look weak (which won't happen), 2-Do nothing and look like the party of obstruction (which is likely), or 3-Try to spin the narrative back on him (which they've already begun to do).  Problem is, the narrative they are NOW spinning is that incarcerating families is evil. 

Well, the problem with that is, they ASKED for families to be kept together.  So he signs an EO to do this.  Now, they are saying that's evil.  The bad optics have now switched to their side because, in reality, they want fully open borders - but that's a losing message, so they can't really say that.  But they can't go to the White House and work WITH the President and give him a victory either.  So they are stuck.

BTW, I believe that BOTH sides - Republicans and Democrats - couldn't give a single rat's ass about those kids.  It's ALL political posturing - NONE of these elected officials really care if they live, die, or even exist.  Rachel Maddow's "breaking down in elephant tears" was pathetic, as is the dog and pony show of FLOTUS visiting these enclosures today.  It's all partisan nonsense and, while I do enjoy the spin-doctoring as a craft, it tends to become white noise after a while - which goes to your original point.

Okay, as to your assertion that these "exact same things" happened under Obama, I'm going to have to call bull. This is Trump's doing. Two days ago, he was saying that he couldn't possibly solve the problem; then today he signs an executive order that ends the practice. Nothing changed in those two days. He was lying. That is a fact. And while this may have happened under Obama from time to time, it was unintentional in most circumstances. Don't make me side with Paasche again.

Having said that, the Dems appear to have won this round. They succeeded in pushing the narrative that these kids were being harmed. Except... really? Are we to believe that these kids lived in cartel towns, fled the violence, traversed the Mexican deserts, and snuck across the border, and this is going to be the thing that scars them for life? I don't buy it for a second. My friend Ignacio came here hidden in the trunk of somebody's car, and was separated from his mom for months. He turned out fine. So as long as these kids are getting food, water, and shelter, I can't say I give a fuck. Blame the parents who dragged them 3,000 miles. No, not every single one of these families is fleeing persecution. And if they want to become Americans, it's pretty ironic that the first thing they've done in their new country is violate our national autonomy.

I do think the Dems will continue to push on this issue, and it'll gradually become less relevant as the family separations fade in people's minds.

Kids were consistently separated and put into cages under the Obama administration.  The photos that the media tried to feign outrage over a couple of weeks ago were from 2014 in the Obama administration.  There are literally pictures of marches with people protesting Obama's policies separating families.  You can call bull all you want - it happened.  If you think this has only started happening under Trump, you are woefully misguided.  Yes, it has happened more under Trump because of their zero tolerance policy and their unwillingness to catch & release.  There are subtle nuanced differences in some of the specs of families being separated, but the fact is that they were separated under the Obama administration and they are being separated under the Trump administration.

I've gotten calls about this at my internship, so I can guarantee you that I've done my research on the subject. Obama's administration would sometimes prosecute border-crossers if they had already been apprehended and deported before. Very few of them came over with kids, so it was generally a non-issue. The idea of separating families intentionally as a deterrent is something that was dreamt up entirely by the Trump administration. And the zero-tolerance policy is new as well. Remember, I only care about this insofar as it pertains to the truth. I have no dog in this fight. But don't say blatant falsehoods like that and expect no one to correct you on it.

Yeah - I've done my research too man.  If you think immigrant children weren't separated from their families OR locked up in cages under the Obama administration as well, then you need to do more research.

Oh - and feel free to side with Paaasche again.  In fact, I encourage it.  Makes me feel even better about any political argument I am making.

Tut

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I've gotten calls about this at my internship, so I can guarantee you that I've done my research on the subject. Obama's administration would sometimes prosecute border-crossers if they had already been apprehended and deported before. Very few of them came over with kids, so it was generally a non-issue. The idea of separating families intentionally as a deterrent is something that was dreamt up entirely by the Trump administration. And the zero-tolerance policy is new as well. Remember, I only care about this insofar as it pertains to the truth. I have no dog in this fight. But don't say blatant falsehoods like that and expect no one to correct you on it.

Yeah - I've done my research too man.  If you think immigrant children weren't separated from their families OR locked up in cages under the Obama administration as well, then you need to do more research.

Oh - and feel free to side with Paaasche again.  In fact, I encourage it.  Makes me feel even better about any political argument I am making.

This is really weird. Every time I've gotten in a conversation with one of you guys for the past few days, you've argued against a position I never took. It'd be frustrating if I wasn't so unnerved by it. It's like we're existing in separate planes of reality.

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I've gotten calls about this at my internship, so I can guarantee you that I've done my research on the subject. Obama's administration would sometimes prosecute border-crossers if they had already been apprehended and deported before. Very few of them came over with kids, so it was generally a non-issue. The idea of separating families intentionally as a deterrent is something that was dreamt up entirely by the Trump administration. And the zero-tolerance policy is new as well. Remember, I only care about this insofar as it pertains to the truth. I have no dog in this fight. But don't say blatant falsehoods like that and expect no one to correct you on it.

Yeah - I've done my research too man.  If you think immigrant children weren't separated from their families OR locked up in cages under the Obama administration as well, then you need to do more research.

Oh - and feel free to side with Paaasche again.  In fact, I encourage it.  Makes me feel even better about any political argument I am making.

This is really weird. Every time I've gotten in a conversation with one of you guys for the past few days, you've argued against a position I never took. It'd be frustrating if I wasn't so unnerved by it. It's like we're existing in separate planes of reality.

You literally wrote:  "Okay, as to your assertion that these "exact same things" happened under Obama, I'm going to have to call bull."

I provided proof that kids were separated from their families AND put in "cages" under the Obama administration.  I never argued that it didn't happen more under the Trump administration or under different pretenses - it has.  But the results were the same - again - kids were separated from their families AND put in "cages".  And I uses "cages" in quotes because they obviously are not cages, but that is what the MSM is laughably referring to them as.  The kids that get separated now are being held in the same facilities that they were held under the Obama administration. 

If you're argument is that "the reasons are different", then I would retort with "so what"?  If I shoot you in the face because you fucked my goat or I shoot you in the face because all gingers are evil, you still got shot in the face - the pretenses or reasoning don't really matter in the grand scheme when the end result is the same.  The point is, the exact same thing (CHILDREN BEING SEPARATED AND PLACED IN "CAGES") happened under Obama as it has under Trump.  To say differently is incorrect.

Tut

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I've gotten calls about this at my internship, so I can guarantee you that I've done my research on the subject. Obama's administration would sometimes prosecute border-crossers if they had already been apprehended and deported before. Very few of them came over with kids, so it was generally a non-issue. The idea of separating families intentionally as a deterrent is something that was dreamt up entirely by the Trump administration. And the zero-tolerance policy is new as well. Remember, I only care about this insofar as it pertains to the truth. I have no dog in this fight. But don't say blatant falsehoods like that and expect no one to correct you on it.

Yeah - I've done my research too man.  If you think immigrant children weren't separated from their families OR locked up in cages under the Obama administration as well, then you need to do more research.

Oh - and feel free to side with Paaasche again.  In fact, I encourage it.  Makes me feel even better about any political argument I am making.

This is really weird. Every time I've gotten in a conversation with one of you guys for the past few days, you've argued against a position I never took. It'd be frustrating if I wasn't so unnerved by it. It's like we're existing in separate planes of reality.

You literally wrote:  "Okay, as to your assertion that these "exact same things" happened under Obama, I'm going to have to call bull."

I provided proof that kids were separated from their families AND put in "cages" under the Obama administration.  I never argued that it didn't happen more under the Trump administration or under different pretenses - it has.  But the results were the same - again - kids were separated from their families AND put in "cages".  And I uses "cages" in quotes because they obviously are not cages, but that is what the MSM is laughably referring to them as.  The kids that get separated now are being held in the same facilities that they were held under the Obama administration. 

If you're argument is that "the reasons are different", then I would retort with "so what"?  If I shoot you in the face because you fucked my goat or I shoot you in the face because all gingers are evil, you still got shot in the face - the pretenses or reasoning don't really matter in the grand scheme when the end result is the same.  The point is, the exact same thing (CHILDREN BEING SEPARATED AND PLACED IN "CAGES") happened under Obama as it has under Trump.  To say differently is incorrect.

Did you even read the Snopes article you posted? It's about families inadvertently being separated when Obama deported the parents and let the kids (who were born in the US) stay behind. Obama never made it his policy to split up families at the border expressly as a deterrent to further immigration. Trump has done exactly that. These are facts, but you're acting like I'm personally attacking Trump even though I don't really care much about this issue. Obama deported a shitload of Mexicans, and I won't support or defend that. I'm just saying that under Trump, this is happening 1) At different rates, 2) For different reasons, and 3) At a different point in the immigration process. So to say it's the "exact same thing" is at best misleading and at worst just plain dumb.

ChillinDylan Godsend

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I've gotten calls about this at my internship, so I can guarantee you that I've done my research on the subject. Obama's administration would sometimes prosecute border-crossers if they had already been apprehended and deported before. Very few of them came over with kids, so it was generally a non-issue. The idea of separating families intentionally as a deterrent is something that was dreamt up entirely by the Trump administration. And the zero-tolerance policy is new as well. Remember, I only care about this insofar as it pertains to the truth. I have no dog in this fight. But don't say blatant falsehoods like that and expect no one to correct you on it.

Yeah - I've done my research too man.  If you think immigrant children weren't separated from their families OR locked up in cages under the Obama administration as well, then you need to do more research.

Oh - and feel free to side with Paaasche again.  In fact, I encourage it.  Makes me feel even better about any political argument I am making.

This is really weird. Every time I've gotten in a conversation with one of you guys for the past few days, you've argued against a position I never took. It'd be frustrating if I wasn't so unnerved by it. It's like we're existing in separate planes of reality.

You literally wrote:  "Okay, as to your assertion that these "exact same things" happened under Obama, I'm going to have to call bull."

I provided proof that kids were separated from their families AND put in "cages" under the Obama administration.  I never argued that it didn't happen more under the Trump administration or under different pretenses - it has.  But the results were the same - again - kids were separated from their families AND put in "cages".  And I uses "cages" in quotes because they obviously are not cages, but that is what the MSM is laughably referring to them as.  The kids that get separated now are being held in the same facilities that they were held under the Obama administration. 

If you're argument is that "the reasons are different", then I would retort with "so what"?  If I shoot you in the face because you fucked my goat or I shoot you in the face because all gingers are evil, you still got shot in the face - the pretenses or reasoning don't really matter in the grand scheme when the end result is the same.  The point is, the exact same thing (CHILDREN BEING SEPARATED AND PLACED IN "CAGES") happened under Obama as it has under Trump.  To say differently is incorrect.

Did you even read the Snopes article you posted? It's about families inadvertently being separated when Obama deported the parents and let the kids (who were born in the US) stay behind. Obama never made it his policy to split up families at the border expressly as a deterrent to further immigration. Trump has done exactly that. These are facts, but you're acting like I'm personally attacking Trump even though I don't really care much about this issue. Obama deported a shitload of Mexicans, and I won't support or defend that. I'm just saying that under Trump, this is happening 1) At different rates, 2) For different reasons, and 3) At a different point in the immigration process. So to say it's the "exact same thing" is at best misleading and at worst just plain dumb.

[sigh]

Did you not even read my last post?  Here are the snippets to make it easier for you.


"I never argued that it didn't happen more under the Trump administration or under different pretenses - it has.  But the results were the same - again - kids were separated from their families AND put in "cages"."

"the pretenses or reasoning don't really matter in the grand scheme when the end result is the same.  The point is, the exact same thing (CHILDREN BEING SEPARATED AND PLACED IN "CAGES") happened under Obama as it has under Trump."

Tut

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[sigh]

Did you not even read my last post?  Here are the snippets to make it easier for you.


"I never argued that it didn't happen more under the Trump administration or under different pretenses - it has.  But the results were the same - again - kids were separated from their families AND put in "cages"."

"the pretenses or reasoning don't really matter in the grand scheme when the end result is the same.  The point is, the exact same thing (CHILDREN BEING SEPARATED AND PLACED IN "CAGES") happened under Obama as it has under Trump."

Suppose we were discussing the black unemployment rate under Obama vs under Trump.

You could say "The black unemployment rate dropped to its all-time lowest level under Trump." This is true.

I could then say "The same thing happened under Obama." This is also true, but it omits the fact that the rate under Trump was lower. Still, under Obama it dropped to what was at the time an all-time low.

The second statement here is technically true, but it is misleading. Just like saying that "The same thing happened under Obama" when it comes to "kids were put in centers away from their families." Most of the kids in the photos from the Obama era were being sent across the border without their parents to begin with. And if Obama deported parents but let kids stay, that's still adhering to historical US immigration policy. He never deliberately separated families coming across the border as a deterrent. Ergo, it is not the same thing. You are reducing the argument to one generalized statement and acting like the two cases are morally equivalent. They aren't.

I think we actually agree on the fundamentals here. I just had to clarify your statement when you said "Even though these same exact things happened under Obama's watch," which implied that the policy was the same under him.

Kale Pasta

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I wanted to quickly hop in only to say that Dylan is so transparently spreading misinformation that it's painful. The two Snopes links basically sum this up: Diego posts a link about how no legislation from either '08 or '97 made separating children from their parents at the border the law of the land, and then Dylan responds with a post about a sign stating "Obama, don't separate me from mommy"... which Snopes declared miscaptioned by others. As Deigo's been saying, that refers to the deportation of those already in the country, as children were allowed to stay when parents were deported. That is clearly different from separating families at the borders and acting as if they're the same (not which is worse or whatever, but pretending that the two presidents enforced the same policies) is disingenuous at best.

On another note, my biggest thing about all this was how transparently and brazenly Trump lied about the whole thing, as he basically continued to argue that this was the Democrats' policy that he was powerless to alter up until the day he signed an executive order doing just that.

Tut

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I wanted to quickly hop in only to say that Dylan is so transparently spreading misinformation that it's painful. The two Snopes links basically sum this up: Diego posts a link about how no legislation from either '08 or '97 made separating children from their parents at the border the law of the land, and then Dylan responds with a post about a sign stating "Obama, don't separate me from mommy"... which Snopes declared miscaptioned by others. As Deigo's been saying, that refers to the deportation of those already in the country, as children were allowed to stay when parents were deported. That is clearly different from separating families at the borders and acting as if they're the same (not which is worse or whatever, but pretending that the two presidents enforced the same policies) is disingenuous at best.

On another note, my biggest thing about all this was how transparently and brazenly Trump lied about the whole thing, as he basically continued to argue that this was the Democrats' policy that he was powerless to alter up until the day he signed an executive order doing just that.

If he wants to prove to us that Trump supporters are rational people, he's doing a remarkably poor job of it.

Kale Pasta

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I wanted to quickly hop in only to say that Dylan is so transparently spreading misinformation that it's painful. The two Snopes links basically sum this up: Diego posts a link about how no legislation from either '08 or '97 made separating children from their parents at the border the law of the land, and then Dylan responds with a post about a sign stating "Obama, don't separate me from mommy"... which Snopes declared miscaptioned by others. As Deigo's been saying, that refers to the deportation of those already in the country, as children were allowed to stay when parents were deported. That is clearly different from separating families at the borders and acting as if they're the same (not which is worse or whatever, but pretending that the two presidents enforced the same policies) is disingenuous at best.

On another note, my biggest thing about all this was how transparently and brazenly Trump lied about the whole thing, as he basically continued to argue that this was the Democrats' policy that he was powerless to alter up until the day he signed an executive order doing just that.

If he wants to prove to us that Trump supporters are rational people, he's doing a remarkably poor job of it.
The increased disdain for facts and education might be the worst things to happen due to Trump's election.

 

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