+- +-

+- User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 
Forgot your password?

+- Site Stats

Members
Total Members: 135
Latest: Nate Ellis
New This Month: 1
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 99382
Total Topics: 4067
Most Online Today: 7
Most Online Ever: 55
(April 18, 2016, 06:09:38 pm)
Users Online
Members: 0
Guests: 1
Total: 1

Poll

What would you rate Damien Chazelle's La La Land?

Great (9-10)
4 (66.7%)
Good (7-8)
1 (16.7%)
Average (5-6)
0 (0%)
Bad (3-4)
0 (0%)
Anus of Cinema (0-2)
1 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Author Topic: La La Land  (Read 736 times)

Tho Master Fie

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 5057
  • Fear comes in waves
Re: La La Land
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2017, 11:29:16 pm »
Ya know... I'm starting to think this one ah isn't all that.
I think it's a 6/10 film.  So..I agree.  Very nicely made, but kind of a shіt film underneath.  Kind of like Mad Max: Fury Road.
Agree Agree x 2 View List

Gold Jeffblum

  • Nicolas Cage
  • ******
  • Posts: 3785
  • ...checkmate.
Re: La La Land
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2017, 11:58:13 pm »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.
Not so much Jim as Pam. Pam is a horrible failure at ah everything she does (art school, Michael Scott Paper Company, salesman at Dunder Mifflin) yet acts in such ah condescending and self important way toward everyone in the office. Say whatever you like about ah Jim's smugness, but he could at least back it up with some life accomplishments. He's actually good at his job as a salesman, he had a run as office manager (and arguably a corporate position if he hadn't ah gotten cold feet and wanted to go back to Scranton), he got the girl (even if I really think that ah she's not a nice person), and he's ambitious enough to start a business with Darryl.

 Where does Pam get off with ah her cocky, superior attitude? What does she do the ah entire series that makes her worth anything? She's dishonest (taking advantage of Gabe's ignorance and making up the office manager job when she ah fails horribly at sales), she gets in trouble and needs Jim to bail her out (joining the Michael Scott Paper Company when she's paying off a house thus throwing the ah responsibility entirely onto Jim's shoulders just because she doesn't like being a receptionist was horribly selfish. Have Jim lie about the financial status of MSPC [INSIDER TRADING! DWIGHT KNEW! HE RISKED JAIL FOR HER!] was even worse). She's a total **** to Jim. So she leads him on the entire first couple season and then ah tells him that she doesn't love him... waits until he's in a new relationship and then dumps her fiancee for him? Unbelievable! I ah always felt so bad for Karen. Then there's the BS with Jim's company that ah was the biggest reason for the failure of Season 9 besides Ed Helms. Jim has a great business plan to get them out of ah their DEAD END JOBS WITH A DYING COMPANY and make a better life for them and their kids. He can't go through with it initially because ah Pam doesn't want to leave Scranton. Uh... why? She's always acting like ah she's better than everyone. You'd think (and Jim probably thought) that she'd be happy to leave. It wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice. Meanwhile Jim is constantly ah making sacrifices (withdraws from corporate consideration, dumps Karen (a much better partner for him imo), risks jail, and is willing to give up on ah his dream of starting his sports company. When does she reciprocate?

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

Diego Tutweiller

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 4505
  • It's all over now, baby blue...
  • Location: Nice try, NSA
Re: La La Land
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2017, 12:25:55 am »
Not so much Jim as Pam. Pam is a horrible failure at ah everything she does (art school, Michael Scott Paper Company, salesman at Dunder Mifflin) yet acts in such ah condescending and self important way toward everyone in the office. Say whatever you like about ah Jim's smugness, but he could at least back it up with some life accomplishments. He's actually good at his job as a salesman, he had a run as office manager (and arguably a corporate position if he hadn't ah gotten cold feet and wanted to go back to Scranton), he got the girl (even if I really think that ah she's not a nice person), and he's ambitious enough to start a business with Darryl.

 Where does Pam get off with ah her cocky, superior attitude? What does she do the ah entire series that makes her worth anything? She's dishonest (taking advantage of Gabe's ignorance and making up the office manager job when she ah fails horribly at sales), she gets in trouble and needs Jim to bail her out (joining the Michael Scott Paper Company when she's paying off a house thus throwing the ah responsibility entirely onto Jim's shoulders just because she doesn't like being a receptionist was horribly selfish. Have Jim lie about the financial status of MSPC [INSIDER TRADING! DWIGHT KNEW! HE RISKED JAIL FOR HER!] was even worse). She's a total **** to Jim. So she leads him on the entire first couple season and then ah tells him that she doesn't love him... waits until he's in a new relationship and then dumps her fiancee for him? Unbelievable! I ah always felt so bad for Karen. Then there's the BS with Jim's company that ah was the biggest reason for the failure of Season 9 besides Ed Helms. Jim has a great business plan to get them out of ah their DEAD END JOBS WITH A DYING COMPANY and make a better life for them and their kids. He can't go through with it initially because ah Pam doesn't want to leave Scranton. Uh... why? She's always acting like ah she's better than everyone. You'd think (and Jim probably thought) that she'd be happy to leave. It wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice. Meanwhile Jim is constantly ah making sacrifices (withdraws from corporate consideration, dumps Karen (a much better partner for him imo), risks jail, and is willing to give up on ah his dream of starting his sports company. When does she reciprocate?

Yeah but at least she's cute

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2017, 12:33:41 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 12:37:22 am by Frankie »
Like Like x 3 View List

Gold Jeffblum

  • Nicolas Cage
  • ******
  • Posts: 3785
  • ...checkmate.
Re: La La Land
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2017, 12:39:04 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.
Great analysis, Frank!
Like Like x 1 Agree Agree x 1 View List

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2017, 12:43:42 am »
I don't think La La Land is a great film in any sense, I think it's a solid film (probably around the 6.5-7/10 range).

The only thing that was truly great was the ending, but I was honestly pretty bored up until that point.

I do know one thing is for sure though and that's Damien Chazelle's ability to make a great ending to his films. Seriously, Whiplash and La La Land feature some pretty great emotional kickers as endings.

Diego Tutweiller

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 4505
  • It's all over now, baby blue...
  • Location: Nice try, NSA
Re: La La Land
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2017, 12:54:00 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.
Like Like x 2 View List

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2017, 01:01:13 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Diego Tutweiller

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 4505
  • It's all over now, baby blue...
  • Location: Nice try, NSA
Re: La La Land
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2017, 01:05:24 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Well, are you saying that the ending is actually what would have been? It seemed 100% hypothetical to me. Who knows how things would have worked out if they'd actually stayed together?

Gold Jeffblum

  • Nicolas Cage
  • ******
  • Posts: 3785
  • ...checkmate.
Re: La La Land
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2017, 01:07:28 am »
Not so much Jim as Pam. Pam is a horrible failure at ah everything she does (art school, Michael Scott Paper Company, salesman at Dunder Mifflin) yet acts in such ah condescending and self important way toward everyone in the office. Say whatever you like about ah Jim's smugness, but he could at least back it up with some life accomplishments. He's actually good at his job as a salesman, he had a run as office manager (and arguably a corporate position if he hadn't ah gotten cold feet and wanted to go back to Scranton), he got the girl (even if I really think that ah she's not a nice person), and he's ambitious enough to start a business with Darryl.

 Where does Pam get off with ah her cocky, superior attitude? What does she do the ah entire series that makes her worth anything? She's dishonest (taking advantage of Gabe's ignorance and making up the office manager job when she ah fails horribly at sales), she gets in trouble and needs Jim to bail her out (joining the Michael Scott Paper Company when she's paying off a house thus throwing the ah responsibility entirely onto Jim's shoulders just because she doesn't like being a receptionist was horribly selfish. Have Jim lie about the financial status of MSPC [INSIDER TRADING! DWIGHT KNEW! HE RISKED JAIL FOR HER!] was even worse). She's a total **** to Jim. So she leads him on the entire first couple season and then ah tells him that she doesn't love him... waits until he's in a new relationship and then dumps her fiancee for him? Unbelievable! I ah always felt so bad for Karen. Then there's the BS with Jim's company that ah was the biggest reason for the failure of Season 9 besides Ed Helms. Jim has a great business plan to get them out of ah their DEAD END JOBS WITH A DYING COMPANY and make a better life for them and their kids. He can't go through with it initially because ah Pam doesn't want to leave Scranton. Uh... why? She's always acting like ah she's better than everyone. You'd think (and Jim probably thought) that she'd be happy to leave. It wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice. Meanwhile Jim is constantly ah making sacrifices (withdraws from corporate consideration, dumps Karen (a much better partner for him imo), risks jail, and is willing to give up on ah his dream of starting his sports company. When does she reciprocate?

Yeah but at least she's cute
She's no Ryan though.

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2017, 01:12:15 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Well, are you saying that the ending is actually what would have been? It seemed 100% hypothetical to me. Who knows how things would have worked out if they'd actually stayed together?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that she's the one that gave him the choice and he chose. In the end he sees that he chose wrong.

Diego Tutweiller

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 4505
  • It's all over now, baby blue...
  • Location: Nice try, NSA
Re: La La Land
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2017, 01:21:15 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Well, are you saying that the ending is actually what would have been? It seemed 100% hypothetical to me. Who knows how things would have worked out if they'd actually stayed together?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that she's the one that gave him the choice and he chose. In the end he sees that he chose wrong.

(I guess I should say spoilers ahead, but the cat's probably out of the bag on this one anyway.)

Ah... well, I might have to see the film again, but the way I remember that scene, it felt like he was trying to choose what was best for both of them. His own career was probably a factor, and he could have risked it by going to Paris with her... but the way I saw it, the relationship got them through a very difficult time in both of their lives, so it wasn't purposeless. It wasn't until later that they realized it could have been a lot more, but I'm not prepared to call either of them selfish just for that. To me, the whole relationship felt very much like Annie Hall, which similarly portrayed a transitional period in the lives of its characters. The fact that they don't end up together at the end makes them flawed, and by extension more realistic and human.

I'm not defending their choices. I'm just saying it's not as clear-cut as you guys are making it out to be. There's no real right or wrong here.

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2017, 01:33:47 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Well, are you saying that the ending is actually what would have been? It seemed 100% hypothetical to me. Who knows how things would have worked out if they'd actually stayed together?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that she's the one that gave him the choice and he chose. In the end he sees that he chose wrong.

(I guess I should say spoilers ahead, but the cat's probably out of the bag on this one anyway.)

Ah... well, I might have to see the film again, but the way I remember that scene, it felt like he was trying to choose what was best for both of them. His own career was probably a factor, and he could have risked it by going to Paris with her... but the way I saw it, the relationship got them through a very difficult time in both of their lives, so it wasn't purposeless. It wasn't until later that they realized it could have been a lot more, but I'm not prepared to call either of them selfish just for that. To me, the whole relationship felt very much like Annie Hall, which similarly portrayed a transitional period in the lives of its characters. The fact that they don't end up together at the end makes them flawed, and by extension more realistic and human.

I'm not defending their choices. I'm just saying it's not as clear-cut as you guys are making it out to be. There's no real right or wrong here.

I think you do need to re-watch it because these two characters are selfish and it shows this fatal flaw many times throughout the film. The ending only serves to prove that Sebastian realizes this and acknowledges it in his piano song. This song he plays throughout the film is only seen when he is at his most compromising state and further evidence even proves my sentiment when in his head he plays over the scenario of meeting Mia for the first time. If only he had embraced her, if only he had accepted her into his life, if only he had been with her because of her and not for him.

This is all compounded into his piano song which he plays in front of Mia in a muted expressive form of language to him, one only he can truly understand as Mia still just sees the surface level of the aesthetic (the style of the film further lamenting this idea). Sebastian is truly playing for her in the end and she doesn't see past it because of his choices. You see how broken this makes him feel just by looking at him.

La La Land is ultimately a film of "what if" or "I should've done this instead of that". These two characters are stuck in their respective La La Lands, and it's only until the end of the film that one of them realizes that they should've been together.

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2017, 01:41:40 am »
Goddamn, Frank, didn't know that you're the biggest fag I know.

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2017, 01:42:07 am »
Goddamn, Frank, didn't know that you're the biggest fag I know.

I got no time for this, I'm going to bed.

Diego Tutweiller

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 4505
  • It's all over now, baby blue...
  • Location: Nice try, NSA
Re: La La Land
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2017, 01:45:01 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Well, are you saying that the ending is actually what would have been? It seemed 100% hypothetical to me. Who knows how things would have worked out if they'd actually stayed together?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that she's the one that gave him the choice and he chose. In the end he sees that he chose wrong.

(I guess I should say spoilers ahead, but the cat's probably out of the bag on this one anyway.)

Ah... well, I might have to see the film again, but the way I remember that scene, it felt like he was trying to choose what was best for both of them. His own career was probably a factor, and he could have risked it by going to Paris with her... but the way I saw it, the relationship got them through a very difficult time in both of their lives, so it wasn't purposeless. It wasn't until later that they realized it could have been a lot more, but I'm not prepared to call either of them selfish just for that. To me, the whole relationship felt very much like Annie Hall, which similarly portrayed a transitional period in the lives of its characters. The fact that they don't end up together at the end makes them flawed, and by extension more realistic and human.

I'm not defending their choices. I'm just saying it's not as clear-cut as you guys are making it out to be. There's no real right or wrong here.

I think you do need to re-watch it because these two characters are selfish and it shows this fatal flaw many times throughout the film. The ending only serves to prove that Sebastian realizes this and acknowledges it in his piano song. This song he plays throughout the film is only seen when he is at his most compromising state and further evidence even proves my sentiment when in his head he plays over the scenario of meeting Mia for the first time. If only he had embraced her, if only he had accepted her into his life, if only he had been with her because of her and not for him.

This is all compounded into his piano song which he plays in front of Mia in a muted expressive form of language to him, one only he can truly understand as Mia still just sees the surface level of the aesthetic (the style of the film further lamenting this idea). Sebastian is truly playing for her in the end and she doesn't see past it because of his choices. You see how broken this makes him feel just by looking at him.

La La Land is ultimately a film of "what if" or "I should've done this instead of that". These two characters are stuck in their respective La La Lands, and it's only until the end of the film that one of them realizes that they should've been together.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of this. I just have a hard time calling them flat-out selfish. I think that robs their characters of a bit of their nuance. It's a case of 20/20 hindsight, and heaping blame on either of them for not recognizing what they had at the time is expecting way too much of two characters who are supposed to be flawed and stubborn to begin with. The question behind all of this was whether or not this aspect of their characters (call it selfishness or not; I just call it being human) detracted from the experience at all. And it didn't for me, because like I said, it makes them more human. I think we have a tendency to hold movie characters to a different standard, but what's obvious to the audience is not obvious to them at all. They're pigheaded, yes. But selfish? I really don't know. I think the positive impact they ultimately have on one another kind of weakens that argument. And even though Gosling ends up feeling broken, as you say, well... better to have loved and lost...

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2017, 01:59:49 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Well, are you saying that the ending is actually what would have been? It seemed 100% hypothetical to me. Who knows how things would have worked out if they'd actually stayed together?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that she's the one that gave him the choice and he chose. In the end he sees that he chose wrong.

(I guess I should say spoilers ahead, but the cat's probably out of the bag on this one anyway.)

Ah... well, I might have to see the film again, but the way I remember that scene, it felt like he was trying to choose what was best for both of them. His own career was probably a factor, and he could have risked it by going to Paris with her... but the way I saw it, the relationship got them through a very difficult time in both of their lives, so it wasn't purposeless. It wasn't until later that they realized it could have been a lot more, but I'm not prepared to call either of them selfish just for that. To me, the whole relationship felt very much like Annie Hall, which similarly portrayed a transitional period in the lives of its characters. The fact that they don't end up together at the end makes them flawed, and by extension more realistic and human.

I'm not defending their choices. I'm just saying it's not as clear-cut as you guys are making it out to be. There's no real right or wrong here.

I think you do need to re-watch it because these two characters are selfish and it shows this fatal flaw many times throughout the film. The ending only serves to prove that Sebastian realizes this and acknowledges it in his piano song. This song he plays throughout the film is only seen when he is at his most compromising state and further evidence even proves my sentiment when in his head he plays over the scenario of meeting Mia for the first time. If only he had embraced her, if only he had accepted her into his life, if only he had been with her because of her and not for him.

This is all compounded into his piano song which he plays in front of Mia in a muted expressive form of language to him, one only he can truly understand as Mia still just sees the surface level of the aesthetic (the style of the film further lamenting this idea). Sebastian is truly playing for her in the end and she doesn't see past it because of his choices. You see how broken this makes him feel just by looking at him.

La La Land is ultimately a film of "what if" or "I should've done this instead of that". These two characters are stuck in their respective La La Lands, and it's only until the end of the film that one of them realizes that they should've been together.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of this. I just have a hard time calling them flat-out selfish. I think that robs their characters of a bit of their nuance. It's a case of 20/20 hindsight, and heaping blame on either of them for not recognizing what they had at the time is expecting way too much of two characters who are supposed to be flawed and stubborn to begin with. The question behind all of this was whether or not this aspect of their characters (call it selfishness or not; I just call it being human) detracted from the experience at all. And it didn't for me, because like I said, it makes them more human. I think we have a tendency to hold movie characters to a different standard, but what's obvious to the audience is not obvious to them at all. They're pigheaded, yes. But selfish? I really don't know. I think the positive impact they ultimately have on one another kind of weakens that argument. And even though Gosling ends up feeling broken, as you say, well... better to have loved and lost...

How does them being selfish rob them of any nuance? Being selfish is humanity's nature so what you call human is exactly the same as calling them selfish. They are stubborn and pigheaded, but that leads into the reality of them wanting the only thing that mattered to them at the time (which was accomplishing something by themselves).

And in no way is there any hindsight bias anywhere here where I presented my thoughts on the film. I didn't expect them at all to realize that they should be together. Did you even read my first post? The film played it out as if they were a fling, not star-crossed lovers, they used each other to prop their respective selves up. It seemed like a spur of the moment. That's why I think the ending is so special. It's a complete 180 on the idea of them just being a fling and possibly something more.

Diego Tutweiller

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 4505
  • It's all over now, baby blue...
  • Location: Nice try, NSA
Re: La La Land
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2017, 02:53:26 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Well, are you saying that the ending is actually what would have been? It seemed 100% hypothetical to me. Who knows how things would have worked out if they'd actually stayed together?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that she's the one that gave him the choice and he chose. In the end he sees that he chose wrong.

(I guess I should say spoilers ahead, but the cat's probably out of the bag on this one anyway.)

Ah... well, I might have to see the film again, but the way I remember that scene, it felt like he was trying to choose what was best for both of them. His own career was probably a factor, and he could have risked it by going to Paris with her... but the way I saw it, the relationship got them through a very difficult time in both of their lives, so it wasn't purposeless. It wasn't until later that they realized it could have been a lot more, but I'm not prepared to call either of them selfish just for that. To me, the whole relationship felt very much like Annie Hall, which similarly portrayed a transitional period in the lives of its characters. The fact that they don't end up together at the end makes them flawed, and by extension more realistic and human.

I'm not defending their choices. I'm just saying it's not as clear-cut as you guys are making it out to be. There's no real right or wrong here.

I think you do need to re-watch it because these two characters are selfish and it shows this fatal flaw many times throughout the film. The ending only serves to prove that Sebastian realizes this and acknowledges it in his piano song. This song he plays throughout the film is only seen when he is at his most compromising state and further evidence even proves my sentiment when in his head he plays over the scenario of meeting Mia for the first time. If only he had embraced her, if only he had accepted her into his life, if only he had been with her because of her and not for him.

This is all compounded into his piano song which he plays in front of Mia in a muted expressive form of language to him, one only he can truly understand as Mia still just sees the surface level of the aesthetic (the style of the film further lamenting this idea). Sebastian is truly playing for her in the end and she doesn't see past it because of his choices. You see how broken this makes him feel just by looking at him.

La La Land is ultimately a film of "what if" or "I should've done this instead of that". These two characters are stuck in their respective La La Lands, and it's only until the end of the film that one of them realizes that they should've been together.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of this. I just have a hard time calling them flat-out selfish. I think that robs their characters of a bit of their nuance. It's a case of 20/20 hindsight, and heaping blame on either of them for not recognizing what they had at the time is expecting way too much of two characters who are supposed to be flawed and stubborn to begin with. The question behind all of this was whether or not this aspect of their characters (call it selfishness or not; I just call it being human) detracted from the experience at all. And it didn't for me, because like I said, it makes them more human. I think we have a tendency to hold movie characters to a different standard, but what's obvious to the audience is not obvious to them at all. They're pigheaded, yes. But selfish? I really don't know. I think the positive impact they ultimately have on one another kind of weakens that argument. And even though Gosling ends up feeling broken, as you say, well... better to have loved and lost...

How does them being selfish rob them of any nuance? Being selfish is humanity's nature so what you call human is exactly the same as calling them selfish. They are stubborn and pigheaded, but that leads into the reality of them wanting the only thing that mattered to them at the time (which was accomplishing something by themselves).

And in no way is there any hindsight bias anywhere here where I presented my thoughts on the film. I didn't expect them at all to realize that they should be together. Did you even read my first post? The film played it out as if they were a fling, not star-crossed lovers, they used each other to prop their respective selves up. It seemed like a spur of the moment. That's why I think the ending is so special. It's a complete 180 on the idea of them just being a fling and possibly something more.

I feel like "selfish" implies that they only thought of themselves during the relationship, which I really don't think is true at all. They seemed to genuinely care for one another and actively encouraged each other to pursue their dreams. Examples include when Sebastian drives to Mia's house to tell her about the audition, or the dinner scene, where Mia tells him a truth that's very difficult for him to accept, but one that he needed to hear anyway. I dunno, maybe I'm nitpicking the wording too much here, but whenever I personally have been in a relationship with someone I consider to be genuinely selfish, it's been very difficult to look past that. That word implies that they cared more about their own careers than they did about one another, and despite the choices they ultimately make, I'm not convinced of that. Mia and Seb's relationship doesn't seem driven by selfishness so much as the natural collision of two type-A personalities. And I think there is a distinction to be made there, however minor it may be.

Frankie

  • Administrator
  • Jeff Goldblum
  • ******
  • Posts: 6201
Re: La La Land
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2017, 10:44:12 am »
You can get caught up in the ah music and the cinematography (and I did certainly) but at its core, it's a very poor romance centered around two selfish pricks

You've made claims like this before without explaining them. Didn't you say that Jim and Pam from The Office were terrible people or something? Those are some pretty high standards, especially for characters who are realistic mainly due to their flaws.

  This brings me to La La Land. This connection between Mia and Sebastian was ah nothing more than a fling. Chemistry? Sure. Love? Not even close. I doubt either cared about the other more than ah themselves.  Their respective dreams were both more important than ah either one of the was to the other which is why they were so quick to drop the relationship once ah Mia left for France.  I guess Sebastian driving all that way to ah tell Mia she got a callback is something of an act of selflessness, but ah really that's it. They didn't care about one another. If they did, they'd ah work to stay together. Sebastian could have put his work on hold if he loved her. She could have ah worked him into her newfound fame. No. They were just detours to something else. It's superficial. Its weak. Maybe that's the point.  Maybe it never was meant to be more than a fling. That's fine but ah don't ask me to care.

I wholeheartedly agree with your Office remarks, but I dunno about La La Land in this case. The entire ending of La La Land shows the immediate regret Sebastian has in his eyes in not staying with Mia and delves into that emotion, putting it on stage. It's easy to blame Sebastian because he chose to live out his dream instead of being with his potential dream girl (which you accurately point out as selfishness) and in a way they are both in it for themselves. But, Sebastian realizes that his dream was futile if he couldn't share it with the one he truly cared about. He realizes that in the end he made the worst mistake of his life by not accepting the fact that maybe he should have let go of his selfish dream in order to support the one he loves. That piano song he played at the end of the film is the same as the beginning not because she met him and he wanted to play it one last time for her. Instead, he played it because he was at his lowest point again, just like he was in the beginning of the film when she first sees him playing. That's why in his head we see that after he played his song he embraced Mia immediately when she introduced herself, rather than coldly shrugging her off like he did in actuality. We see in his head that he realizes that his dream has only been dragging him down as luggage his entire life, that's why he hates associating with people and getting attached to them because he perceived it as another barrier that got in the way of his dream. In the end, he achieved his dream with the cost of letting the love of his life go and he immediately sees the mistake in this.

I don't think we were supposed to think of both of these protagonists as anything but selfish and I believe the point of the film was to get us to believe that it was just a fling and they were together only to prop each other up for their respective dreams. We weren't supposed to really care for them in a conventional way as we see them only in an aesthetic way, kind of like the way the film is presented in its style. There is no emotional core that drives either of them. The thing that truly elevates La La Land in this case is the ending for that very reason. It turns itself in a 180 arc and tells us that maybe these characters were wrong in being selfish and should have made better choices. It ultimately doesn't matter because that's just how life goes on. We make idiotic mistakes because at the moment it seemed like the only option and you may call it ignorance or even selfish, but it's definitely something everyone can relate to at one point in their life and it's something that people can realize in the future and acknowledge the futility of their actions.

It could also be said that Sebastian allowed the relationship to end partly to let Mia pursue her career, which is pretty damn selfless, I'd say. They consistently encourage one another despite the fact that they lose confidence in themselves. I wouldn't call them "selfish" so much as just strong-willed and stubborn.

That wouldn't make sense since she gave him a choice. He was the one to choose his dream over his love. The end when he imagines himself being with her doesn't change her dream at all nor does it collapse her entire career.

Well, are you saying that the ending is actually what would have been? It seemed 100% hypothetical to me. Who knows how things would have worked out if they'd actually stayed together?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that she's the one that gave him the choice and he chose. In the end he sees that he chose wrong.

(I guess I should say spoilers ahead, but the cat's probably out of the bag on this one anyway.)

Ah... well, I might have to see the film again, but the way I remember that scene, it felt like he was trying to choose what was best for both of them. His own career was probably a factor, and he could have risked it by going to Paris with her... but the way I saw it, the relationship got them through a very difficult time in both of their lives, so it wasn't purposeless. It wasn't until later that they realized it could have been a lot more, but I'm not prepared to call either of them selfish just for that. To me, the whole relationship felt very much like Annie Hall, which similarly portrayed a transitional period in the lives of its characters. The fact that they don't end up together at the end makes them flawed, and by extension more realistic and human.

I'm not defending their choices. I'm just saying it's not as clear-cut as you guys are making it out to be. There's no real right or wrong here.

I think you do need to re-watch it because these two characters are selfish and it shows this fatal flaw many times throughout the film. The ending only serves to prove that Sebastian realizes this and acknowledges it in his piano song. This song he plays throughout the film is only seen when he is at his most compromising state and further evidence even proves my sentiment when in his head he plays over the scenario of meeting Mia for the first time. If only he had embraced her, if only he had accepted her into his life, if only he had been with her because of her and not for him.

This is all compounded into his piano song which he plays in front of Mia in a muted expressive form of language to him, one only he can truly understand as Mia still just sees the surface level of the aesthetic (the style of the film further lamenting this idea). Sebastian is truly playing for her in the end and she doesn't see past it because of his choices. You see how broken this makes him feel just by looking at him.

La La Land is ultimately a film of "what if" or "I should've done this instead of that". These two characters are stuck in their respective La La Lands, and it's only until the end of the film that one of them realizes that they should've been together.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of this. I just have a hard time calling them flat-out selfish. I think that robs their characters of a bit of their nuance. It's a case of 20/20 hindsight, and heaping blame on either of them for not recognizing what they had at the time is expecting way too much of two characters who are supposed to be flawed and stubborn to begin with. The question behind all of this was whether or not this aspect of their characters (call it selfishness or not; I just call it being human) detracted from the experience at all. And it didn't for me, because like I said, it makes them more human. I think we have a tendency to hold movie characters to a different standard, but what's obvious to the audience is not obvious to them at all. They're pigheaded, yes. But selfish? I really don't know. I think the positive impact they ultimately have on one another kind of weakens that argument. And even though Gosling ends up feeling broken, as you say, well... better to have loved and lost...

How does them being selfish rob them of any nuance? Being selfish is humanity's nature so what you call human is exactly the same as calling them selfish. They are stubborn and pigheaded, but that leads into the reality of them wanting the only thing that mattered to them at the time (which was accomplishing something by themselves).

And in no way is there any hindsight bias anywhere here where I presented my thoughts on the film. I didn't expect them at all to realize that they should be together. Did you even read my first post? The film played it out as if they were a fling, not star-crossed lovers, they used each other to prop their respective selves up. It seemed like a spur of the moment. That's why I think the ending is so special. It's a complete 180 on the idea of them just being a fling and possibly something more.

I feel like "selfish" implies that they only thought of themselves during the relationship, which I really don't think is true at all. They seemed to genuinely care for one another and actively encouraged each other to pursue their dreams. Examples include when Sebastian drives to Mia's house to tell her about the audition, or the dinner scene, where Mia tells him a truth that's very difficult for him to accept, but one that he needed to hear anyway. I dunno, maybe I'm nitpicking the wording too much here, but whenever I personally have been in a relationship with someone I consider to be genuinely selfish, it's been very difficult to look past that. That word implies that they cared more about their own careers than they did about one another, and despite the choices they ultimately make, I'm not convinced of that. Mia and Seb's relationship doesn't seem driven by selfishness so much as the natural collision of two type-A personalities. And I think there is a distinction to be made there, however minor it may be.

Eh, I think this is a case of you experiencing someone selfish when in a relationship and you attributing an extremely negative connotation with that word due to that. It certainly is a negative word, especially when it's used to describe someone in a relationship, but I think there are varying degrees of it. I'm not saying they didn't care for each other, but what I'm saying is that they cared for their dreams a lot more. Just take a look at the scene where Sebastian chooses to go to the photo op over watching Mia's play which she poured so much effort into. You think that's not a prime example of selfishness? What did Sebastian think was going to happen if he didn't go? Of course he knew she would be upset, but he made his choice anyway because he ultimately thought his career was just more important. He even realizes his mistake when the photo op was entirely useless to him and goes to see Mia, but it's too late. This whole scene foreshadows their entire relationship going forward and helps further the idea presented at the end of the film that they were in it more for themselves than being with each other.

 

+- Hot Topics

The Official Movie Trailer/TV Spot Watching Thread by John Tyler
August 22, 2017, 09:52:57 pm

THE OFFICIAL MOVIE WATCHING THREAD by John Tyler
August 22, 2017, 08:57:06 pm

Game of Thrones by Diego Tutweiller
August 22, 2017, 11:53:30 am

THE TV SHOW WATCHING THREAD!! by Danny Darkoh
August 22, 2017, 02:37:15 am

The Movie/TV Facts Thread by John Tyler
August 21, 2017, 11:42:17 pm

Death Note by The One Who Lurks
August 21, 2017, 06:14:28 pm

Rick and Morty by CT_Sexybeast
August 21, 2017, 05:49:28 pm

Mother! by Diego Tutweiller
August 21, 2017, 12:56:22 pm

Tulip Fever by John Tyler
August 21, 2017, 12:37:31 pm

Atomic Blonde by Diego Tutweiller
August 21, 2017, 12:10:46 am

The Movie Pitch Thread by Robert Neville
August 20, 2017, 05:13:56 pm

Diego Tutweiller Presents: A Game of Trolls by Diego Tutweiller
August 20, 2017, 03:38:04 am

The One sentence movie summary thread! by John Tyler
August 19, 2017, 10:46:13 pm

Logan Lucky by Suspect #1
August 19, 2017, 03:02:35 pm

Recent purchases (part II) by Diego Tutweiller
August 18, 2017, 07:14:13 pm